Question:

December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not rebound any time soon, according to government officials. The cable, sent late last month as the officer ended a yearlong tour, presented a bleak assessment on matters of politics, economics and security, the officials said. They said its basic conclusions had been echoed in briefings presented by a senior C.I.A. official who recently visited Iraq. The officials described the two assessments as having been "mixed," saying that they did describe Iraq as having made important progress, particularly in terms of its political process, and credited Iraqis with being resilient. But over all, the officials described the station chief’s cable in particular as an unvarnished assessment of the difficulties ahead in Iraq. They said it warned that the security situation was likely to get worse, including more violence and sectarian clashes, unless there were marked improvements soon on the part of the Iraqi government, in terms of its ability to assert authority and to build the economy. Together, the appraisals, which follow several other such warnings from officials in Washington and in the field, were much more pessimistic than the public picture being offered by the Bush administration before the elections scheduled for Iraq next month, the officials said. The cable was sent to C.I.A. headquarters after American forces completed what military commanders have described as a significant victory, with the retaking of Falluja, a principal base of the Iraqi insurgency, in mid-November. The American ambassador to Iraq, John D. Negroponte, was said by the officials to have filed a written dissent, objecting to one finding as too harsh, on the ground that the United States had made more progress than was described in combating the Iraqi insurgency. But the top American military commander in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., also reviewed the cable and initially offered no objections, the officials said. One official said, however, that General Casey may have voiced objections in recent days. The station chief’s cable has been widely disseminated outside the C.I.A., and was initially described by a government official who read the document and who praised it as unusually candid. Other government officials who have read or been briefed on the document later described its contents. The officials refused to be identified by name or affiliation because of the delicacy of the issue. The station chief cannot be publicly identified because he continues to work undercover. Asked about the cable, a White House spokesman, Sean McCormack, said he could not discuss intelligence matters. A C.I.A. spokesman would say only that he could not comment on any classified document. It was not clear how the White House was responding to the station chief’s cable. In recent months, some Republicans, including Senator John McCain of Arizona, have accused the agency of seeking to undermine President Bush by disclosing intelligence reports whose conclusions contradict the administration or its policies. But senior intelligence officials including John E. McLaughlin, the departing deputy director of central intelligence, have disputed those assertions. One government official said the new assessments might suggest that Porter J. Goss, the new director of central intelligence, was willing to listen to views different from those publicly expressed by the administration. A separate, more formal, National Intelligence Estimate prepared in July and sent to the White House in August by American intelligence agencies also presented a dark forecast for Iraq’s future through the end of 2005. Among three possible developments described in that document, the best case was tenuous stability and the worst case included a chain of events leading to civil war. After news reports disclosed the existence of the National Intelligence Estimate, which also remains classified, President Bush initially dismissed the conclusions as nothing more than a guess. Since then, however, violence in Iraq has increased, including the recent formation of a Shiite militia intended to carry out attacks on Sunni militants. The end-of-tour cable from the station chief, spelling out an assessment of the situation on the ground, is a less-formal product than a National Intelligence Estimate. But it was drafted by an officer who is highly regarded within the C.I.A. and who, as station chief in Baghdad, has been the top American intelligence official in Iraq since December 2003. The station chief overseas an intelligence operation that includes about 300 people, making Baghdad the largest C.I.A. station since Saigon during the Vietnam War era. The senior C.I.A. official who visited Iraq and then briefed counterparts from other government agencies was Michael Kostiw, a senior adviser to Mr. Goss. One government official who knew about Mr. Kostiw’s briefings described them as "an honest portrayal of the situation on the ground." Since they took office in September, Mr. Goss and his aides have sought to discourage unauthorized disclosures of information. In a memorandum sent to C.I.A. employees last month, Mr. Goss said the job of the intelligence agency was to "provide the intelligence as we see it" but also to "support the administration and its policies in our work." "As agency employees we do not identify with, support or champion opposition to the administration or its policies," Mr. Goss said in that memorandum, saying that he was seeking "to clarify beyond doubt the rules of the road." The memorandum urged intelligence employees to "let the facts alone speak to the policy maker." Mr. Goss himself made his first foreign trip as the intelligence director last week, with stops that included several days in Britain and a day in Afghanistan, but he did not visit Iraq, the government officials said. At the White House on Monday, President Bush himself offered no hint of pessimism as he met with Iraq’s president, Sheik Ghazi al-Yawar. Despite the security challenges, Mr. Bush said, the United States continues to favor the voting scheduled for Iraq on Jan. 30 to "send the clear message to the few people in Iraq that are trying to stop the march toward democracy that they cannot stop elections." "The American people must understand that democracy just doesn’t happen overnight," he said. "It is a process. It is an evolution. After all, look at our own history. We had great principles enunciated in our Declarations of Independence and our Constitution, yet, we had slavery for a hundred years. It takes a while for democracy to take hold. And this is a major first step in a society which enables people to express their beliefs and their opinions." _____ Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access               at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence

Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not

rebound any time soon, according to government officials. The cable, sent late last month as the officer ended a yearlong tour,

presented a bleak assessment on matters of politics, economics and security, the officials said. They

said its basic conclusions had been echoed in briefings presented by a senior C.I.A. official who

recently visited Iraq. The officials described the two assessments as having been "mixed," saying

that they did describe Iraq as having made important progress, particularly in terms of its

political process, and credited Iraqis with being resilient. But over all, the officials described the station chief’s cable in

particular as an unvarnished assessment of the difficulties ahead in Iraq. They said it warned that the

security situation was likely to get worse, including more violence and sectarian clashes, unless there were marked improvements soon on the part of the Iraqi government, in terms of its

ability to assert authority and to build the economy. Together, the appraisals, which follow several other such warnings from

officials in Washington and in the field, were much more pessimistic than the public picture being offered by the Bush administration before the elections scheduled for Iraq next month, the

officials said. The cable was sent to C.I.A. headquarters after American forces completed what

military commanders have described as a significant victory, with the retaking of Falluja, a

principal base of the Iraqi insurgency, in mid-November. The American ambassador to Iraq, John D. Negroponte, was said by the

officials to have filed a written dissent, objecting to one finding as too harsh, on the ground that

the United States had made more progress than was described in combating the Iraqi insurgency.

But the top American military commander in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., also reviewed the

cable and initially offered no objections, the officials said. One official said, however, that

General Casey may have voiced objections in recent days. The station chief’s cable has been widely disseminated outside the C.I.A., and was initially described by a government official who read the document and who praised

it as unusually candid. Other government officials who have read or been briefed on the document later described its contents. The officials refused to be identified by name or affiliation

because of the delicacy of the issue. The station chief cannot be publicly identified because he

continues to work undercover. Asked about the cable, a White House spokesman, Sean McCormack, said he could not discuss intelligence matters. A C.I.A. spokesman would say only that he could not

comment on any classified document. It was not clear how the White House was responding to the station chief’s

cable. In recent months, some Republicans, including Senator John McCain of Arizona, have accused

the agency of seeking to undermine President Bush by disclosing intelligence reports whose

conclusions contradict the administration or its policies. But senior intelligence officials

including John E. McLaughlin, the departing deputy director of central intelligence, have disputed those

assertions. One government official said the new assessments might suggest that Porter J. Goss, the

new director of central intelligence, was willing to listen to views different from those publicly expressed by the administration. A separate, more formal, National Intelligence Estimate prepared in July

and sent to the White House in August by American intelligence agencies also presented a dark

forecast for Iraq’s future through the end of 2005. Among three possible developments described in

that document, the best case was tenuous stability and the worst case included a chain of events

leading to civil war. After news reports disclosed the existence of the National Intelligence

Estimate, which also remains classified, President Bush initially dismissed the conclusions as nothing more than a guess. Since then, however, violence in Iraq has increased, including the

recent formation of a Shiite militia intended to carry out attacks on Sunni militants. The end-of-tour cable from the station chief, spelling out an assessment

of the situation on the ground, is a less-formal product than a National Intelligence Estimate.

But it was drafted by an officer who is highly regarded within the C.I.A. and who, as station chief

in Baghdad, has been the top American intelligence official in Iraq since December 2003. The

station chief overseas an intelligence operation that includes about 300 people, making Baghdad the

largest C.I.A. station since Saigon during the Vietnam War era. The senior C.I.A. official who visited Iraq and then briefed counterparts

from other government agencies was Michael Kostiw, a senior adviser to Mr. Goss. One government

official who knew about Mr. Kostiw’s briefings described them as "an honest portrayal of the

situation on the ground." Since they took office in September, Mr. Goss and his aides have sought to

discourage unauthorized disclosures of information. In a memorandum sent to C.I.A. employees last

month, Mr. Goss said the job of the intelligence agency was to "provide the intelligence as we see

it" but also to "support the administration and its policies in our work." "As agency employees we do not identify with, support or champion

opposition to the administration or its policies," Mr. Goss said in that memorandum, saying that he was

seeking "to clarify beyond doubt the rules of the road." The memorandum urged intelligence employees

to "let the facts alone speak to the policy maker." Mr. Goss himself made his first foreign trip as the intelligence director

last week, with stops that included several days in Britain and a day in Afghanistan, but he did not visit Iraq, the government officials said. At the White House on Monday, President Bush himself offered no hint of

pessimism as he met with Iraq’s president, Sheik Ghazi al-Yawar. Despite the security challenges,

Mr. Bush said, the United States continues to favor the voting scheduled for Iraq on Jan. 30 to

"send the clear message to the few people in Iraq that are trying to stop the march toward democracy

that they cannot stop elections." "The American people must understand that democracy just doesn’t happen

overnight," he said. "It is a process. It is an evolution. After all, look at our own history. We had great principles enunciated in our Declarations of Independence and our Constitution, yet,

we had slavery for a hundred years. It takes a while for democracy to take hold. And this is a

major first step in a society which enables people to express their beliefs and their opinions." _____ Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access               at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Sounds like disinformation intended to imbolden and possibly bring out liberal insurgents. If someone was leaking classified information, especially fresh reports the scope of access would be narrow enough to without much investigation determine to within 2 or 3 persons or closer who the leak was and as it would be a serious crime and make it easy to envoke covert rules.

Response:

finest neo-Bolshevik agit-prop to a disinterested audience, shared this turd: < commie twaddle excised BLACK WIDOW SPIDER BITES The female black widow typically is coal black and has a prominent, spherical abdomen that may be as large as one-half inch (1.25 cm) in diameter.  This appearance is so distinctive that finding the characteristic markings on the undersurface of the abdomen is rarely necessary.  The typical markings consist of red or orange figures that usually resemble an hourglass, but may be round, broken into two figures, or have some other configuration.  Markings of the same color but in varying patterns are sometimes present on the back, although only the undersurface markings are considered characteristic.  In some southwestern states black widow spiders have irregular white patches on their abdomens.  Different species of Latrodectus in other countries have a similar appearance. (fbe mate is smaller, has a brown color, and is harmless.) The black widow weaves a coarse, crudely constructed web in dark corners, both indoors and out.  Almost half the black widow bites reported in the medical literature in the first four decades of this century were inflicted on the male genitalia by spiders On the underside of outdoor toilet seats.  However, this spider is timid and would rather run than attack an intruder. Thirty to forty years ago five to ten deaths a year resulted from black widow spider bites, although they were limited almost entirely to small children or elderly individuals in poor health.  Recognition and treatment of such bites has improved so much that deaths are rare within the United States. (Bites in children weighing thirty pounds or less would still have a mortality of about fifty percent if untreated.) In healthy adults, black widow spider bites cause painful muscle spasms and prostration for two to four days, but complete recovery essentially always follows.  Antivenin treatment is not recommended for adults. The bite may feel like a pin prick, may produce a mild burning, or may not be noticed at all.  Small puncture wounds, slight redness, or no visible marks may be found at the site of the bite.  Within about fifteen minutes painful muscle cramps develop at the point of the bite and rapidly spread to involve the entire body.  The characteristic pattern of spread is by continuity.  From a bite on the forearm the cramps would spread to the upper arm, to the shoulder, and over the chest to involve the rest of the body, including the legs.  The abdominal muscles are characteristically rigid and hard, although the abdomen is not tender.  Weakness and tremors are also present. A typical subject is anxious and restless.  A feeble pulse and cold, clammy skin suggest shock; labored breathing, slurred speech, impaired coordination, mild stupor, and rare convulsions (in children) suggest disease involving the brain, Bitten individuals are often covered with perspiration; dizziness, nausea, and vomiting are common.  If the spider or its bite have not been observed, the signs and symptoms may lead to an erroneous diagnosis of an acute abdominal emergency. Symptoms typically increase in severity for several hours, occasionally as long as twenty-four hours, and then gradually subside. After two or three days essentially all symptoms disappear, although a few minor residua may persist for weeks or months. Treatment consists of efforts to relieve the painful muscle spasms and antivenin for small children.  No treatment at all should be directed to the site of the bite, with the possible exception of applying an ice cube to relieve pain.  Incision and suction is damaging and useless and should not be performed. Essentially nothing can be done outside a hospital; small children must be hospitalized.  Antivenin, produced in the United States by Merck Sharp & Dohme, and the drugs to control spasms are rarely available anywhere else.  The antivenin is prepared in horses and should not be given to persons allergic to horse serum.  It is usually not administered to healthy adults between the ages of sixteen and sixty, and only to individuals of small body size with severe symptoms who are twelve to fifteen years old.  Instructions with the vial of antiserum should be followed. Muscle spasms may be relieved by periodic injections of 10 cc of a ten percent calcium gluconate solution or 10 cc of methocarbamol, but these are rarely available outside a hospital.  A tranquilizer (diazepam) may help relieve less severe muscle spasms; hot baths are occasionally helpful.  Strong analgesics are helpful but rarely provide complete pain relief.

Response:

A half-witted neocon nimrod proudly bleated: BULLSHIT Wild Kingdom article snipped So, Clod, I guess what you’re trying to say is that you’re a female spider with a pin prick who has muscle spasms. My condolences. Hope the sex change goes well for you. Bob

Response:

YOU LOST.  Get over it. LV Bruce Morgen slobbered: (NYT crap)

Response:

fluffed itself up as much as it could and angrily twittered: A half-witted neocon nimrod proudly bleated: BULLSHIT Wild Kingdom article snipped So, Clod, I guess what you’re trying to say is that you’re a female spider with a pin prick who has muscle spasms. My condolences. Hope the sex change goes well for you. Bob, still kneeling

Zzzzzzzzzzz. Don’t give up yet. You’re close to passing an original thought. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod

Response:

YOU LOST.  Get over it. LV Bruce Morgen slobbered: (NYT crap)

Would you prefer it from your favorite Moonie rag via the Moon-owned UPI wire?  They picked right up on it, like a duck on a june bug!        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access               at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

Some generic, whining asshole calling itself Bobsyeruncle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – fluffed itself up as much as it could and angrily twittered: A half-witted neocon nimrod proudly bleated: BULLSHIT Wild Kingdom article snipped So, Clod, I guess what you’re trying to say is that you’re a female spider with a pin prick who has muscle spasms. My condolences. Hope the sex change goes well for you. Bob, still kneeling Zzzzzzzzzzz. Don’t give up yet. You’re close to passing an original thought. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod

Response:

Clad in women’s undergarments, Clod fumed: Zzzzzzzzzzzopi. I want you. You’re all the man I’ll ever need. I won’t give up yet. I’m close to passing a hard turd, though. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod

How’s that, Clot? Bob

Response:

Searching the depths of his apparently limited imagination, the whining asshole – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Clad in women’s undergarments, Clod fumed: Zzzzzzzzzzzopi. I want you. You’re all the man I’ll ever need. I won’t give up yet. I’m close to passing a hard turd, though. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod How’s that, Clot? Bob

Just about what one would expect. Mulay Lite. Almost as good as melatonin. "Fumed"? Do keep on Bobbing though. Klod

Response:

Experiencing a transitory moment of lucidity, some whining asshole posting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some generic, whining asshole calling itself Bobsyeruncle fluffed itself up as much as it could and angrily twittered: A half-witted neocon nimrod proudly bleated: BULLSHIT Wild Kingdom article snipped So, Clod, I guess what you’re trying to say is that you’re a female spider with a pin prick who has muscle spasms. My condolences. Hope the sex change goes well for you. Bob, still kneeling Zzzzzzzzzzz. Don’t give up yet. You’re close to passing an original thought. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod

This is your best post yet, Bobber. Keep up the good thoughts. Claude

Response:

December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not rebound any time soon, according to government officials.

I think we can safely disregard this. We were told by Duby & Co. that we’d be welcomed with open arms. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

(crap)

You’re annoying. Quit it. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

Clot burbled to the surface of the tampon and lamented: Just about what one would expect. Mulay Lite.

There’s only one Marc Mulay-we aim to please- If you meet Kneel down there, don’t let LV’s balls slap you in the face. Almost as good as melatonin.

But not quite as good as valium, I guess? "Fumed"?

A prissy word meaning to simper- look it up. Do keep on Bobbing though.

I gotta be me. Klod

Bob

Response:

In a vain attempt to amuse the group, the asshole posting as Bobsyeruncle Clot burbled to the surface of the tampon and lamented: Just about what one would expect. Mulay Lite. There’s only one Marc Mulay-we aim to please- If you meet Kneel down there, don’t let LV’s balls slap you in the face.

Ahhh, so that’s what your beef is with Willie. Alienation of your "partner"’s affection. How wrong I was. All this time I thought that you were merely another one of the Lord’s interchangeable, whining, anonymous fartcatchers following him around AGA for no particular reason. My deepest apologies for underestimating you. Almost as good as melatonin. But not quite as good as valium, I guess? "Fumed"? A prissy word meaning to simper- look it up.

No thanks, you can keep "prissy". It fits you perfectly. Do keep on Bobbing though. I gotta be me.

Just make sure your clients wear a thick condom. We wouldn’t want them to catch something, now would we. Klod

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not rebound any time soon, according to government officials. I think we can safely disregard this. We were told by Duby & Co. that we’d be welcomed with open arms. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Hi, When will Dubya and his gang wake up and smell the real coffee? After all the horses ran off the corral I guess. Are they slow learners or do they have learning disability? They don’t seem to have any common sense at all. Tony

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not rebound any time soon, according to government officials. I think we can safely disregard this. We were told by Duby & Co. that we’d be welcomed with open arms. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/ Hi, When will Dubya and his gang wake up and smell the real coffee? After all the horses ran off the corral I guess. Are they slow learners or do they have learning disability? They don’t seem to have any common sense at all. Tony

George W. Bush actually has dyslexia. John

Response:

Anything that annoys your lame ass is worth doing over and over. BTW – this is a top post, you’re an asshole, drop dead, and Jesus loves you. LV – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (crap) You’re annoying. Quit it. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

Jesus loves you.

Like you know squat about Jesus.

Response:

Jesus loves you. Like you know squat about Jesus.

Jesus thinks you’re an asshole. He told me so.  He also told me not to tell. Now I’m goin’ ta HELL, and it’s your fault. You PLICK!  (I’m part Chinese.) Lord Valve Uh-Oh…

Response:

BLACK WIDOW SPIDER BITES The female black widow typically is coal black and has a prominent, spherical abdomen that may be as large as one-half inch (1.25 cm) in diameter.

Black Widows are also enormously strong for their size. When I lived in El Paso, I used to toss those big-ass Texas cockroaches into black widow webs for fun, just to see that tiny spider run down & kill it, then wrap it up & hang it like a side of beef. Amazing.   — Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA www.triodeelectronics.com

Response:

George W. Bush actually has dyslexia. John

Dyslexia I don’t mind. Some very famous & smart people are & have been dyslexic, like George S Patton, for a well known example. Some folks are just plain stupid, whether they’re dyslexic or not. Weren’t some folks predicting that (a) Iraq would turn into a quagmire and (b) the value of the US dollar would start looking at being at par value with Polish zlotys, only a month or so ago?..and (c) every dittohead was screaming that none of that would happen, those predictions were merely inventions of the mainstream liberal leaning media (D’oh! They STILL are screaming that!). Any rate, Bush policies are good for Canadians who are finding out that their currency suddenly has value above rolls of Charmin, and there’s some merit in keeping their government budget balanced. — Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA www.triodeelectronics.com

Response:

<< George W. Bush actually has dyslexia. John <BR<BR According to who? George Soros? — Dr. Nuketopia Sorry, no e-Mail. Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

Response:

Jesus loves you. Like you know squat about Jesus.

Well,  I know LOTS about him…  and he does. Can you prove otherwise… ? ? ? gtski

Response:

Ned… As the result of your casual orientation toward biological reality and its integral relationship with karma, your life energy is destined to return as a cockroach, in the region humans refer to as "Texas"*. Enjoy the balance of time as "humanity" you were awarded…and wasted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BLACK WIDOW SPIDER BITES The female black widow typically is coal black and has a prominent, spherical abdomen that may be as large as one-half inch (1.25 cm) in diameter. Black Widows are also enormously strong for their size. When I lived in El Paso, I used to toss those big-ass Texas cockroaches* into black widow webs for fun, just to see that tiny spider run down & kill it, then wrap it up & hang it like a side of beef. Amazing.  

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.dyslexia.com/bookstore/ thats the first link when googled. i sugest you have a further look as see if any one sells it in uk, though the above will ship. roger Thanks, but oh my god, its $98 with postage to the UK. The postage costs more than the item itself. I went to Blackwells yesterday, and gave them the ISBN from Amazon.com (amazon.co.uk don’t sell the CD audiobook). They said they can’t get it. I would pay to download the 4 CDs as MP3s – it’s just the postage charges are horrendous.

$98? what are they sending it in a lead box? i’d have another look as thats extorinate shipping charges. roger

Response:

Hi – I have bought this book and really want to read it. It is in large print. Unfortunately, my reading is very slow and inaccurate. Can I buy this book an an MP3 file? Thanks in advance

SO WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHERE I CAN GET THIS BOOK ON CD. I think it is an excellent book.

Response:

Why don’t you contact your fellow scammers at the Davis fraud organization. Hi – I have bought this book and really want to read it. It is in large print. Unfortunately, my reading is very slow and inaccurate. Can I buy this book an an MP3 file? Thanks in advance

– "…in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present" Glen Cook

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.dyslexia.com/bookstore/ thats the first link when googled. i sugest you have a further look as see if any one sells it in uk, though the above will ship. roger Thanks, but oh my god, its $98 with postage to the UK. The postage costs more than the item itself. I went to Blackwells yesterday, and gave them the ISBN from Amazon.com (amazon.co.uk don’t sell the CD audiobook). They said they can’t get it. I would pay to download the 4 CDs as MP3s – it’s just the postage charges are horrendous. $98? what are they sending it in a lead box? i’d have another look as thats extorinate shipping charges. roger

I can get it from Davistraining.co.uk for about

Question:

wow, the threats look really interesting.  unfortunantely my head is too over whelmed to read anything write now.  i just finished my first three weeks of teaching.  i don’t know, but i am wondering if am cut out to be a teacher.  i can teach very well.  and i have excellent repore with my students.  (i found out that one of my students yesterday has a sever behavioural disorder.  i completely thought she was joking when she told me this, but she said, "it true miss, i am in a special program for bad kids. i just like you that is why i am good for you.")  at anyrate, i am so over worked and so drained that my mind feels like and marathon runner’s muscles after a race.  …painfull mush.  my learning specialist said the only thing that cures that is sleep.  so i slpet for 12 hours last night and i still feel like mush. the worst par is my dyslexia and dysgraphia (both hand writting ability and orrganisation of thoughts) and spelling ability goes down the tube.  for the first two weeks none of my students caught on that i had a problem, this past week it was really bad.  i couldn’t make a sentence that was accurate, i spelt hypotenus different every time i tried.  after the students tried spelling it out to me and i still kept getting it wrong, finally a student said, "miss just copy it out of the book!"  i inverted numbers, i copied numbers down wrong etc…  i feel very unjust when i dock marks for students for doing the various things wrong that i do.  but i think the ministry of education would be very mad at me if i gave full marks to students who made little tiny errors on the premise that it was an honest mistake. i am off to paint.  i am no artist, but something about squishing and colurs and feel of paint is extremely soothing to the mind. jodie Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

just testing

Response:

^ i just finished my first three weeks of teaching.  i don’t know, but i am ^ wondering if am cut out to be a teacher.  i can teach very well. ^  and i have excellent repore with my students.  …at anyrate, i am ^ so over worked and so drained that my mind feels like and ^ marathon runner’s muscles after a race.  …painfull mush. Everything is still new and you don’t have it completely organized yet. As you gain experience a lot of the things you do will become second nature and you will become more organized. The job will be much easier and you will become much better at foreseeing problems. Frank

Response:

just testing

hello? dyslexic? or just testing? roger

Response:

Teaching is an art so not being a painter is not exactly true, your paints and canvas are just a little more tricky to use, the picture is worth waiting for so the detail is important, I think. Just remember the comments are what the students like so 49% is not great, a comment like- "I can see you have tried hard next time we will do better" or "I really enjoyed this " or "Concentrate a little more on the detail as your natural ability for flair is good" -is. Don’t use joinedy up writing it looses something in the translation Sean (On the receiving End)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ i just finished my first three weeks of teaching.  i don’t know, but i am ^ wondering if am cut out to be a teacher.  i can teach very well. ^  and i have excellent repore with my students.  …at anyrate, i am ^ so over worked and so drained that my mind feels like and ^ marathon runner’s muscles after a race.  …painfull mush. Everything is still new and you don’t have it completely organized yet. As you gain experience a lot of the things you do will become second nature and you will become more organized. The job will be much easier and you will become much better at foreseeing problems. Frank

Response:

Question:

"ci+" <c…@ciNukeSpam.com> pulled the needle out his vein long enough to rant thusly: news:Xns9599D236329Fci@64.85.239.19: > "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> in > news:2usa93F2e33p8U1@uni-berlin.de: >> Why don’t Republicans do it? Oh that’s right, they have JOBS. > conservaitves prefer to shoot up elementary schools wiht semi-auto.. > or hijack jetliners of passengers and fly them into tall buildings..

It’s a little thing we have called "values", you leftist-full-of-hate. — "And guys, if you exploit a girl, it will come back to get you. That’s called ‘karma.’ " – Bill O’Reilly, "The O’Reilly Factor for Kids" Like Mr. Bush, these patriarchal [Catholic] bishops want to turn back the clock to the 50’s. They don’t want separation of church and state – except in Iraq. –Maureen Dowd. Paul! Paul! Help me, Paul! Please Paul, help me! Paul! –Track of the Moonbeast.

Response:

On 4 Nov 2004 10:38:30 -0800, Steve Ruelle said: > First of all, it was a very close call, and just because Bush won the > election does not mean that it is a representative win – only 51% of > those who voted have his support.

a tiny majority, yes, but considering it’s the first time a president has been elected with a majority since bush senior, quite a significant one. > I may get 51% for my final Physics grade and it certainly means I’ve > passed the course.  But a far more convincing mark of actual > competence would be 85% or even 95%.  Using this analogy, Bush barely > got by, even if the principles of democracy and majority rule show > that he won fairly.  This should be kept in mind as the upcoming > months and years go by.

apples and oranges – elections aren’t exams. a close elections is a sign of a healthy democracy – which is what americans are interested in these days, isn’t it? as far as i’m aware, the last time someone received 95% of the vote he was labelled a dictator and invaded. > Furthermore, although the election had a record turnout, there were > still only 60% of eligible voters who went to the polls!  Just 60%!!!! >  And people are gawking at how good the turnout was!  Frustrations > with long lines maybe?  Or is that just an excuse for apathy, as the > data I’m about to post show that the turnout rate for young voters > between the ages of 15-24 was only 10%.  Shocking indeed. So yes, > great turnout, but it could have been way better, especially for those > Democrat-leaning young people who didn’t vote because of apathy.

i agree that the youth turnout was disgracefully low, but i don’t think 15, 16 and 17 year olds are allowed to vote yet! i assume they’re not being included in the 90%, but it’s still poor form to include them in the demographic – or is it just a typo?

Response:

"Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> wrote in message <news:2usa93F2e33p8U1@uni-berlin.de>… > "Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" <zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org> > wrote in message news:Xns9596355C86C4Bfkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6… > > "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> pulled the needle out his vein long > > enough to rant thusly: news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de: > >> Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck. > > Time to riot in the streets. > Funny how democrats are always the ones protesting and rioting? > Why don’t Republicans do it? Oh that’s right, they have JOBS.

DF, you’re no more qualified to comment on the mood/situation in the US than us Americans are to comment on the same in AUS. We can read a lot, to be sure, but when you spend time around people who think that Bush talks to God, or people who voted for him solely on abortion rights or gun control while being ignorant of his failures, then you’ll truly understand the divide here between red and blue. KC, who doesn’t believe in God, but thanks god that he lives in a blue county in a blue state.

Response:

  If he lives that long..:)

Response:

> KC, who doesn’t believe in God, but thanks god that he lives in a blue > county in a blue state.

I don’t believe in God, but I believe with most Christian values, especially on things like homosexuality, waiting for marriage, and abortion.

Response:

> First of all, it was a very close call, and just because Bush won the > election does not mean that it is a representative win – only 51% of > those who voted have his support.

Considering more people voted for him than any other prez in US history and he’s the first prez to get over 50% of the popular vote in 16 years or something, I think that’s pretty "representative".

Response:

"Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> in news:2usa93F2e33p8U1@uni-berlin.de: > Why don’t Republicans do it? Oh that’s right, they have JOBS.

conservaitves prefer to shoot up elementary schools wiht semi-auto.. or hijack jetliners of passengers and fly them into tall buildings.. — http://sfgate.com/c/pictures/2004/10/08/eb_ethiopia_1.jpg Meti Birabiro http://images.google.com/images?q=Melissa%20Auf%20Der%20Maur%20&hl=en… http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2004/03/12/a_talent_with_many… http://bride.ru/ph/htcgi/ladies/214/214517PP1.html http://bride.ru/ph/phcgi/ladies/214/214517P2.jpg http://www.readio.com/nywindowgallery/celebrities/images/pictures-hei… http://www.ipecacaperitif.com/

Response:

audrey in velvet <lindauermadn…@somewhere.com> wrote in news:BDAF191A.2F89%lindauermadness@somewhere.com: > and i had the impression from watching john wayne movies that rednecks > were cowboys with southern accents who gave funny one liners and > always got the bad guy and the pretty damsel in distress in the end.

If you really want to get a true picture of a typical redneck, watch Deliverance. -phy (you shore do got a purty smile)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> wrote in message <news:2uu5bhF2eh0ciU1@uni-berlin.de>… > "Left Hand of Empire" <jack_foreig…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1e1aa574.0411031418.20d60ce9@posting.google.com… > > "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> wrote in message > > <news:2usa93F2e33p8U1@uni-berlin.de>… > >> "Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" > >> <zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org> > >> wrote in message news:Xns9596355C86C4Bfkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6… > >> > "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> pulled the needle out his vein > >> > long > >> > enough to rant thusly: news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de: > >> >> Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck. > >> > Time to riot in the streets. > >> Funny how democrats are always the ones protesting and rioting? > >> Why don’t Republicans do it? Oh that’s right, they have JOBS. > > WTF, did you forget those rednecks storming Florida? > > I’m against Bush, but I ain’t *for* Kerry neither — all those blacks > > and hispanics and gays and feminists are just as bad IMHO as the > > Christians and Jews and fat cats and rednecks. > The Jews should be exterminated once and for all. > Heil Hitler

Don’t be silly.  =)

Response:

If we could just stop all this hoarsing around and actually think for a second, there may be some explanations as to why this dimwit got elected for another term. First of all, it was a very close call, and just because Bush won the election does not mean that it is a representative win – only 51% of those who voted have his support. I may get 51% for my final Physics grade and it certainly means I’ve passed the course.  But a far more convincing mark of actual competence would be 85% or even 95%.  Using this analogy, Bush barely got by, even if the principles of democracy and majority rule show that he won fairly.  This should be kept in mind as the upcoming months and years go by. Furthermore, although the election had a record turnout, there were still only 60% of eligible voters who went to the polls!  Just 60%!!!!  And people are gawking at how good the turnout was!  Frustrations with long lines maybe?  Or is that just an excuse for apathy, as the data I’m about to post show that the turnout rate for young voters between the ages of 15-24 was only 10%.  Shocking indeed. So yes, great turnout, but it could have been way better, especially for those Democrat-leaning young people who didn’t vote because of apathy. Using the Physics analogy again, this is like a professor who assigns optional homework assignments that, if I complete them, can boost my grade.  I may say, oh who gives a fluff, they don’t count, how about a measly 10%?  My deskmate may be eager but he only does 60%, meanwhile the whole class is in awe that he actually completed that much.  If anyone ever did 100% of the homework, they’d say it was impossible. Anyway, here are some exit poll data that suggest what nudged Bush over the ‘passing mark’ to barely scrape by: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6399341/ Most interesting are the great majority of Blacks who voted against this nut (repeat of Reagan elections?) as are the suburban and rural dwellers who chose Bush over Kerry.  Looking at the map, you can see this is evident as Bush took the clear majority of rural states and those with low population densities. Meanwhile, look at the states with high population densities and with educated citizens in urban areas.  Who did they vote for?  Analyze the data yourself. Finally, Bush wouldn’t be in office if it weren’t for the core block of religous right voters, that, I indicated in another post, are making confidence and power their own god. Steve

Response:

"Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de… > Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck.

I think we’ve identified part of your relationship problems right here.

Response:

"Left Hand of Empire" <jack_foreig…@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1e1aa574.0411031418.20d60ce9@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> wrote in message > <news:2usa93F2e33p8U1@uni-berlin.de>… >> "Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" >> <zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org> >> wrote in message news:Xns9596355C86C4Bfkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6… >> > "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> pulled the needle out his vein >> > long >> > enough to rant thusly: news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de: >> >> Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck. >> > Time to riot in the streets. >> Funny how democrats are always the ones protesting and rioting? >> Why don’t Republicans do it? Oh that’s right, they have JOBS. > WTF, did you forget those rednecks storming Florida? > I’m against Bush, but I ain’t *for* Kerry neither — all those blacks > and hispanics and gays and feminists are just as bad IMHO as the > Christians and Jews and fat cats and rednecks.

The Jews should be exterminated once and for all. Heil Hitler

Response:

"Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> wrote in message <news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de>…

[...] > — > "If he could meet a woman who would look at him with friendly eyes instead > of frightened ones

Or disinterested, contemptuous, unimpressed, etc. > he might begin to see himself not as a monster but as a man." > — Sir Frederick Treves

I like this quote.

Response:

Bush is the lesser of two evils. thank god for red necks.

Response:

On 3/11/04 11:02 pm, in article 299b384ccbfb752e44399277f9759…@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com, "Kitz_murdered_our_gallery" <kitz_lost_our_gall…@yahoo.com> wrote: > Bush is the lesser of two evils. thank god for red necks.

hmmm…so i assume a redneck is a privileged *billionaire* who barely got away with c’s at an ivy league college his father donated loads of money to then suddenly got thrown into the position of a figurehead for the republican party cos he wasnt sure what he wanted to do with his life and decided like his brother and father to become some sort of professional politician to please the perfectionist father who handpicked all his advisors to carry on the family honor while he took speech lessons and attempted to overcome his dyslexia by reading teleprompters in public debates… and i had the impression from watching john wayne movies that rednecks were cowboys with southern accents who gave funny one liners and always got the bad guy and the pretty damsel in distress in the end. personally speaking though i much rather watch cutesy romantic movies with freddy prinze jr but i wonder how that will ever change americas new political state? audrey *note…most americans are nowhere near as rich as the bush and kerry families

Response:

"Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> wrote in message <news:2usa93F2e33p8U1@uni-berlin.de>… > "Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" <zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org> > wrote in message news:Xns9596355C86C4Bfkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6… > > "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> pulled the needle out his vein long > > enough to rant thusly: news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de: > >> Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck. > > Time to riot in the streets. > Funny how democrats are always the ones protesting and rioting? > Why don’t Republicans do it? Oh that’s right, they have JOBS.

WTF, did you forget those rednecks storming Florida? I’m against Bush, but I ain’t *for* Kerry neither — all those blacks and hispanics and gays and feminists are just as bad IMHO as the Christians and Jews and fat cats and rednecks. I know, I’m lonely.  =)

Response:

Darkfalz wrote: > "Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent"

<zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org> > wrote in message

news:Xns9596355C86C4Bfkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6… > > "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> pulled the needle out his vein long > > enough to rant thusly: news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de: > >> Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck. > > Time to riot in the streets. > Funny how democrats are always the ones protesting and rioting? > Why don’t Republicans do it? Oh that’s right, they have JOBS.

That’s funny!

Response:

stry…@hotmail.com pulled the needle out his vein long enough to rant thusly: news:1099500370.047056.162220@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Darkfalz wrote: >> "Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" > <zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org> >> wrote in message > news:Xns9596355C86C4Bfkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6… >> > "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> pulled the needle out his > vein long >> > enough to rant thusly: news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de: >> >> Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck. >> > Time to riot in the streets. >> Funny how democrats are always the ones protesting and rioting? >> Why don’t Republicans do it? Oh that’s right, they have JOBS. > That’s funny!

And he thought of it all on his own.  Give that barking seal a sardine. — "And guys, if you exploit a girl, it will come back to get you. That’s called ‘karma.’ " – Bill O’Reilly, "The O’Reilly Factor for Kids" Like Mr. Bush, these patriarchal [Catholic] bishops want to turn back the clock to the 50’s. They don’t want separation of church and state – except in Iraq. –Maureen Dowd. Paul! Paul! Help me, Paul! Please Paul, help me! Paul! –Track of the Moonbeast.

Response:

"Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" <zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org> wrote in message news:Xns9596355C86C4Bfkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6… > "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> pulled the needle out his vein long > enough to rant thusly: news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de: >> Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck. > Time to riot in the streets.

Funny how democrats are always the ones protesting and rioting? Why don’t Republicans do it? Oh that’s right, they have JOBS.

Response:

Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck. — "If he could meet a woman who would look at him with friendly eyes instead of frightened ones he might begin to see himself not as a monster but as a man." — Sir Frederick Treves

Response:

"Darkfalz" <darkfalz.use…@gmail.com> pulled the needle out his vein long enough to rant thusly: news:2us07tF2drjlfU1@uni-berlin.de: > Take that Kerry you horse faced feminist fuck.

Time to riot in the streets.

Response:

Question:

freed…@netscape.ca wrote: > Hi, my name is Deb and I’m from Ontario,Canada. I posted a few > questions about a year ago. It has been a long and difficult year > since. I am having difficulty getting a firm dx. Since last year I > have had a tentative dx of lupus (from my family dr.),a dx of > psoriatic arthritis (from a rheumy). Monday I am travelling to see a > neurologist.I would like to ask the group if anyone has visual > problems. Sometimes my vision is more blurry than others and when I go > outside I get a problem with depth perception. This also happens if I > walk on carpet with a very busy pattern. > I am finding this group a very reassuring place to visit because at > times, with all the odd symptoms, I wonder if I’m just losing it! > btw I had an Aunt, and I have a sister and cousin with lupus. > Sorry for the lengthy read everyone.

Hi Deb and welcome back. http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/ASLFAQ/symptoms.htm See "eye conditions in Lupus" section. I’m glad you’re also seeing a neurologist just in case there’s something else happening. Let us know how it’s going and how you’re doing. Best, J

Response:

Hi Deb, Sorry, but I missed your post for some reason. Being in diagnosis limbo is so difficult. I do hope things get straightened out for you soon. I do get blurred vision and light sensitivity when I am ill. I don’t think depth perception is ever involved though. Let us know what the neurologist has to say. I hope you will visit us more often, now that you have posted to us. Good luck with your appt. BJ-Sk. Canada <freed…@netscape.ca> wrote in message

news:m613n05v822eoom8si7ldo8tus1p0kdlhn@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, my name is Deb and I’m from Ontario,Canada. I posted a few > questions about a year ago. It has been a long and difficult year > since. I am having difficulty getting a firm dx. Since last year I > have had a tentative dx of lupus (from my family dr.),a dx of > psoriatic arthritis (from a rheumy). Monday I am travelling to see a > neurologist.I would like to ask the group if anyone has visual > problems. Sometimes my vision is more blurry than others and when I go > outside I get a problem with depth perception. This also happens if I > walk on carpet with a very busy pattern. > I am finding this group a very reassuring place to visit because at > times, with all the odd symptoms, I wonder if I’m just losing it! > btw I had an Aunt, and I have a sister and cousin with lupus. > Sorry for the lengthy read everyone.

Response:

Hi, my name is Deb and I’m from Ontario,Canada. I posted a few questions about a year ago. It has been a long and difficult year since. I am having difficulty getting a firm dx. Since last year I have had a tentative dx of lupus (from my family dr.),a dx of psoriatic arthritis (from a rheumy). Monday I am travelling to see a neurologist.I would like to ask the group if anyone has visual problems. Sometimes my vision is more blurry than others and when I go outside I get a problem with depth perception. This also happens if I walk on carpet with a very busy pattern. I am finding this group a very reassuring place to visit because at times, with all the odd symptoms, I wonder if I’m just losing it! btw I had an Aunt, and I have a sister and cousin with lupus. Sorry for the lengthy read everyone.

Response:

I have no idea if vision problems have much to do with lupus. I’m sure someone else more knowledgeable will answer that for you. I do know I can’t handle strobe lighting. I also have a terrible problem with some patterns of wall paper and even did as a child. When I was a kid it was fun to watch the pattern "pull apart" but as an adult it makes me nauseated. But I also deal with a form of dyslexia so I have no idea. Often I can look for something but not "see" it but I think that is more of a brain thing than a vision thing. Bev <freed…@netscape.ca> wrote in message

news:m613n05v822eoom8si7ldo8tus1p0kdlhn@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, my name is Deb and I’m from Ontario,Canada. I posted a few > questions about a year ago. It has been a long and difficult year > since. I am having difficulty getting a firm dx. Since last year I > have had a tentative dx of lupus (from my family dr.),a dx of > psoriatic arthritis (from a rheumy). Monday I am travelling to see a > neurologist.I would like to ask the group if anyone has visual > problems. Sometimes my vision is more blurry than others and when I go > outside I get a problem with depth perception. This also happens if I > walk on carpet with a very busy pattern. > I am finding this group a very reassuring place to visit because at > times, with all the odd symptoms, I wonder if I’m just losing it! > btw I had an Aunt, and I have a sister and cousin with lupus. > Sorry for the lengthy read everyone.

Response:

Hey Deb, In regard to the vision problems, good thing you are tested for MS.  Is often one of the first signs.  I would say your symptoms are more indicative to MS.  Do you have numb areas or sensations anywhere on the body? As is said somewhere else, autoimmune disease often seems to occur in families.  My neice was just recently diagnosed with MS.  My sister, my neice’s Mom, has Asthma (also autoimmune related) and "had" Hep C.  Sis was one of the rare cases where Hep C was totally flushed from her system after treatments. But many symptoms of autoimmune disease can overlap and oven carry the issues of fatigue, joint swelling and general aches and pains. I do sometimes have visual problems but who knows why.  Mostly it is from trying to read, my eyes can not keep focus but who knows why.  Will find out eventually, I suppose.  At least, might just be a circulation problem. Oh, and I have what is called, MCTD or Mixed Connective Tissue Disease. Generally it is an overlapping of Lupus, Scleroderma and Polymyositis.  Mine is mostly Lupus but am also positve RA and too many other stuff to list. When I was diagnosed, I was willing to settle for a minor health issue – not dang host to a whole party of them! Keep happy up there in Polar Bear Country!! Always, cloud – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, my name is Deb and I’m from Ontario,Canada. I posted a few > questions about a year ago. It has been a long and difficult year > since. I am having difficulty getting a firm dx. Since last year I > have had a tentative dx of lupus (from my family dr.),a dx of > psoriatic arthritis (from a rheumy). Monday I am travelling to see a > neurologist.I would like to ask the group if anyone has visual > problems. Sometimes my vision is more blurry than others and when I go > outside I get a problem with depth perception. This also happens if I > walk on carpet with a very busy pattern. > I am finding this group a very reassuring place to visit because at > times, with all the odd symptoms, I wonder if I’m just losing it! > btw I had an Aunt, and I have a sister and cousin with lupus. > Sorry for the lengthy read everyone.

Response:

Question:

HOWEDY diannes,

I also teach advanced stuff like heeling off-lead, down at a distance, coming when called while running full speed in the other direction, etc.

You mean withHOWET a shock collar? You call that *advanced*?

Not like kwbrown’s DROP GODDAMNED DEAD command she taught her own DEAD DOG Teena. I thought you were the guy who said leashes were abusive tools…

Only when used to intentionally HURT and INTIMIDATE a dog, like kwbrown done to her own DEAD DOG Teena. Or like THIS:   lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:   For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and   pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it.   When he barks, use the line for a correction.  - if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.   Lynn K. and here you are, telling us that heeling off-leash is *advanced*?  Am I to take this to mean that you don’t teach heeling off- leash from the start?

The QUESTION we been wonderin abHOWET is HOWE to break CHOWENTER surfin. Many of us do, you know.

Yeah. But noWON got any idea HOWE to break CHOWENTER surfin garbage bin raiding or poo eatin. Then we can talk abHOWET aggression. Using those outmoded and ineffective training models you so scorn.

Like MURDERIN your own dog? But Kate, don’t you know that we dog  trainers get into this because we get off  on control?*

Yeah. That’s only part of it. The other part is to compensate for your fragile defective egos weak fearful minds and inferiority complexes. OtherWIZE, you wouldn’t HURT INTIMIDATE BRIBE CRATE and MURDER dogs and try to get HOWET callin THAT, trainin. We don’t WANT to train them to control their own behavior because then we wouldn’t get the pleasure of pushing them around.

You CAN’T train them to CON-TROLL their own behavior on accHOWENT of you HURT and INTIMDIATE them and THAT’S HOWE COME your dogs become aggressive and hyperactive and physically ill and then you MURDER them and blame the dog and pass the crying THOWEL and DO IT AGAIN. I’m sure you can’t actually send Storm on a 200-yard water retrieve, and of course I’d never dream of letting Patience out into the pasture at night, knowing that she’ll bring me all 150 sheep on her own.

Perhaps you could use some of Lee’s methods to train your dog to enjoy herding sheep only when and where you PREFER? It’s all part of trainin. And as for 200 yards, if you can train a dog to do a behavior two feet in front of you he’ll DO it at 200 yards, so long as you’re not relying on PAIN FEAR FORCE and INTIMIDATION to FORCE CON-TROLL of your dogs. THAT’S HOWE COME you bums need shock collars. Gee, think how much more we could accomplish if we could trust them.

Your dog would NATURALLY want to do ANY THING YOU ASK if you didn’t HURT and INIMIDATE them, diannes.  Think how much more we could accomplish  if we used their instincts to help train them. <*vvbg*

If your SELECTIVELY BRED for generations of SELECTIVELY BRED chumpions was well bred, they’d INSTINCTIVELY DO every thing you’re talkin abHOWET as being DIFFICULT. But you can’t even make a SELECTIVELY BRED HUNTIN dog hunt withHOWET HURTIN him. Dianne & Patience (Ch. Nightwind Impulsive Shopper HX ATDd OTDs STDc OA NAJ OAC   OJC NGC RS-O JS-O GS-N CGC HOF) * Responding (belatedly) to comments Lee made in

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=8eecd625f0323da4c60317f732bddd04 %40localhost.talkaboutpets.com HOWE do you stop CHOWENTER surfin poo eatin hole digging garbage bin raiding dog aggression kat aggression or any behavior withHOWET HURTIN the dog, diannes? The Amazing Puppy Wizard had offered $100.00 CASH for ANY NON VIOLENT METHOD that WORKS for ANY of those problems. You got ANY answers, EXXXPERT DOG TRAINER? Your PALS only know HOWE to SHOCK dogs for those behaviors and then they ADMIT it won’t work if you’re not there to HURT and INTIMIDATE the dog, diannes. Your pal tommy sorenson told Disciple Paulie and Marty B they’d NEED to HURT their dogs MOORE than they’d LIKE to break coprophagia. They REPORTED they BROKE coprophagia in a couple minutes using The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual. hjm aka tommy sorenson aka dogman called them LIARS. REMEMBER, diannes? BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Here’s a few of your PALS HURTING dogs and LYING abHOWET it: "Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn. "I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in one shelter.)  But their ability to set their own schedules and duties causes a great deal of scheduling overhead. And it takes effort and thought to ensure that volunteers get the meaningful experience that they work for. Someone has to be responsible for that Volunteer Program, and it is best done by a non-volunteer." Lynn K. "You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House Cats? Don’t bother. The answer is never," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn. lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs: "This Article Is Something We’ve Put Together For SF GSD Rescue  How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay – this is going to be a bit loooong  - Lynn K. "Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.  Don’t forget to put the muzzle on the dog.   I think a prong works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation. Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how to instruct the owner in their proper use.   Electronics can take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars.  At that time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or whatever other reward system was being used."  Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don’t forget to put the muzzle on the dog.   I think a prong works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation.   Have the dog in a sit-stay next to you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is why you have the dog muzzled). If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your voice and the collar. This is important – the correction must be physically very strong – not a nag.   (PS: not many dogs need to be corrected at all)." Lynn, looks like he got you there if these quotes are true. In the posts below you take responsibility for making those calls. In your post above, you state you do not make those calls. Which one is it?

                       WORDS OF WISDOM                  from our own Lynn Kosmakos   1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day                          For Twenty Years        I THINK I’M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT                                 LITHIUM   "I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic- depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day.   I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to   learn more, while happily sharing pertinent   information I have learned.  But if I were ever   to post such sh*t,  I would hope that every other   reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."   "Community is an evolutionary thing that we   earn the right to participate in by observing   the easily understood rules and contributing   to in constructive ways."    Lynn K.   "It wasn’t that meds didn’t work for her   – she wouldn’t take them. I particularly remember   a comment she made about scarey side effects of   Lithium.  Hardly.  After 17 years on it, I think   I’m qualified to say that the very low risk of   any side effect is far less frightening than the   very real dangers of life without it."   Lynn K. LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar conversation on Mental problems.  LYNN AND LOIS Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined But I think what Lois was referring to was the fact that Darlene actually stated at some point that she was bipolar–and, IIRC, that meds did not work for her–so she was prone to major-league ups and downs and sudden enthusiasms..

  "It wasn’t that meds didn’t work for her   – she wouldn’t take them. I particularly remember   a comment she made about scarey side effects of   Lithium.  Hardly.  After 17 years on it, I think   I’m qualified to say that the very low risk of   any side effect is far less frightening than the   very real dangers of life without it."   Lynn K. LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND I know I am totally off topic here, but have you read  "The Unquiet Mind"?

  Yeah.  It’s interesting, but kind of   watered down for the mass market, if   you know what I mean.  There’s really   quite a lot of good work out there and   decent research.  Thank God.   Lynn K. MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!" MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR… YOU DO THE MATH "What’s really terrific, is now days you can say proudly, ‘I take anti-depressives’" … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY kwbrown,

I also teach advanced stuff like heeling off-lead, down at a distance, coming when called while running full speed in the other direction, etc. You call that *advanced*?

Well, maybe no compared to the DROP DEAD command you taught your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER? I thought you were the guy who said leashes  were abusive tools…

Only like HOWE you used it on your DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER? The Amazing Puppy Wizard had WARNED you since day WON that you’d MURDER your own dog. REMEMBER? and here you are,

The Amazing Puppy Wizard sayin "TOLD YOU SO", again, just like HOWE HE been doin with all the other DEAD DOGS you bums have enterTRAINED TO DEATH right here. REMEMBER, kwbrown? telling us that heeling off-leash is *advanced*?

It is, unless you’re a shock collar trainer. Then it’s EZ. So long as you got enough juice.   Am I to take this to mean that you don’t teach heeling off-leash from the start?

Off lead is the same same as on lead if you don’t jerk and choke the dog. REMEMBER, kwbrown? Oh, that’s right. You HURT your dog, THAT’S HOWE COME she turned on you and you MURDERED her on accHOWENT of you couldn’t stop HURTIN her someMOORE. REMEMBER, kwbrown? Many of us do, you know.

That so? Perhaps THAT’S HOWE COME you all rely on shock collars? Using those outmoded and ineffective training models you so scorn.

You and tommy HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER dogs. Until now,

Was Teena the first dog you’ve hurt intimidated and murdered? We know tommy has a lotta dogs he’s murdered when he got too scareed to hurt and intimidate them someMOORE. I just thought you were a pompous windbag –

Let’s talk abHOWET Teena, kwbrown? Perhaps some of Lee’s methods woulda trained her to like working with you and not be afraid of you hurtin her someMOORE? but now, Lee Charles Kelly, I call you a *fraud.*

What do you suppose Teena would think, kwbrown? If you’re pawning off simple intermediate  obedience work as "advanced"

Well, not advanced compared to you and your DROP GODDAMENED DEAD command, kwbrown, for SHORE. on your adoring public,

The Amazing Puppy Wizard was highly impressed with Lee’s book, "NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD TRAINERS," where Lee teaches us HOWE COME dogs TURN on their abusers and fail to work withHOWET shock collars. you’re nothing more than a con artist

Actually, Lee is a struggling author and dog trainer. But you wouldn’t know he was a dog trainer on accHOWENT of there ain’t nuthin you’re familiar with, that he teaches. with an advanced vocabulary and a bad case of logorrhea.

Lee don’t have the DROP GODDAMNED DEAD command in his vocabulary, kwbrown. Care to teach it to him? HJM and I come from the very opposite ends of the political spectrum.

hjm, kwbrown? There AIN’T no hjm, kwbrown. I disagree with his style,

You mean being a anonymHOWES vulgar lying dog abusing punk thug coward mysoginist homophobe racist? and he has *really* pissed me off more than once.

That so? You mean tommy sorenson aka dogman. You can look up his posting history under Lysol and Anchovie.   I’m not sure he’d even set foot in my happily  adopted home, Soviet Canuckistan.  But this  time, I’m with him.

INDEEDY. "Birds of a feather. When you lie with pigs you’ll awaken stinkin like em. You’re JUDGED BY the company you keep. When you get bagged for LYING you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY. I fully acknowledge that any of his dogs could  kick my dog’s butt in a field trial,

That so, kwbrown? Who’s dogs? hjm? hjm has never talked abHOWET his dogs. Has he. Neither has dogman. tommy sorenson doesn’t post here, according to hjm. so here’s an offer, you charlatan.

Let’s DOCUMENT hjm’s WINS before admitting he can HOWEtrain you, eh, kwbrown? On accHOWENT of hjm has NEVER registered a dog anywhere. EVER. O.K.? So, FORGET abHOWET hjm’s dogs on accHOWENT of hjm has NEVER owned a dog. HAS HE.   We’ll make it easier.

Don’t get no EZier than THAT. Show WON dog that hjm has ever registered? Show WON ANY thing hjm has ever done EXXXCEPT post anonymHOWESLY and DENY who he really is when shown the RECORDS provin who’s who when postin. Come deal with a less-experienced trainer and her off-breeed dog, trained only for hunt tests.

You mean, you want Lee to teach you HOWE to improve your DROP GODDAMNED DEAD command?  Only to the intermediate level.

You mean like HALF DEAD, kwbrown? Like the day you posted here that she was turnin on you and janet and hjm told you to jerk and choke her someMOORE? Next time you and Fred are out this way for some book signing, prove to me how easy it is to apply your training religion to some *real* work.

You mean like MURDERIN your own DEAD DOG Teena? Lee couldn’t heelp you with that kinda trainin, kwbrown. Five birds.  Two land, two water, one blind.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard is already CONfHOWENDED with your arithmetic. We’ll keep it easy for poor ol’ Fred and keep everything under 150 yards.

O.K. No problem, on accHOWENT of distance don’t CHOWENT, unless you gotta HURT your dog to train IT, kwbrown. We’ll keep it fair and run everything under CKC Senior Hunt rules.

Does that mean you can shock your dog? C’mon, Lee Charles Kelley.  Put your absurd theories to some use instead of parading  yourself as an expert while, all along, teaching simple commands that should be in most dogs’ vocabularies as "advanced."

Like your DROP GODDAMNED DEAD command, kwbrown? Kate and Affinity Easy Sailing JH WCX CGN the FCR

HOWEDY People, The followin posts are brought to you courtesy of ed w of PET LOSS dot CON and professor marshall dermer, associate professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research and his dog abusing flunky partner dr plonsky at UofWI: ENJOY!: Alan, The puppy wizard calls it as he sees it. He isn’t PC and that pisses people off. The fact is that I have used his FREE methods and they DO in fact work. What a crock of shit relating his methods to a science experiment. Yes, the man is a cross posting menace and has proly smoked too many batts in his day but he has the canine species best interest at heart and doesn’t profit from his point of view. He is a selfless advocate for dogs and that’s enough for me to respect the man no matter how controversial he gets. Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said. Mike Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said. Mike Ok Mike which part worked for you?

It helped clear problems from my dogs in the field using the can penny distraction technique. Works  like a charm. My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie, retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team Leader. Sorry that slipped my mind. I have read volumes of training books and don’t know where people get that Jerry copied others work as I have NEVER come across his methods before. I would like to see proof. Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to the way I wanted them but this is backward, you train out the problems leaving what you want left over. Funny part is the second dog who had the same problems as the other didn’t need correcting for some of his habits after I cleared it from the first dog. Seemed he learned through osmosis. Nice side benefit there. It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party trainer as they were not performing well. The VAST majority of working dog trainers are agressive in their actions with the dogs. I tried it and it didn’t work and guess what? I was at my "Whits End" then someone I knew turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history. I referred friends and families to Jerry’s manual and all have had great results. Starting puppies out on the distraction technique is especially good because they never develop the habit. I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after 2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened in all my days. Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple. Mike neighbors. Please read the Puppy Wizard’s Wits’ End Training Method. You can easily train your dog (regardless of its breed) to behave. Since dogs are very sensitive to peoples’ emotions, you shouldn’t scold, yell or punish your dog when he misbehaves–your dog will think that it is your neighbor with whom you are upset and this will exasperate his behavior toward him. Using Jerry’s training method you can teach your dog to feel comfortable with the boundary of your fence. You will learn from his manual that it is natural for dogs to vecome frustrated from being restrained at such boundaries. This frustration causes them to become agitated and to fixate upon the people whom they see across the boundary. Once taught to feel comfortable with the fence boundary, the aggression problems will dissipate. –Larry HOWEDY TooCool,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have studied canine behavior and

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Response:

BWEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HOWEDY kwbrown, berlin.de: If you’re pawning off simple intermediate obedience work as "advanced" on your adoring public, you’re nothing more than a con artist with an advanced vocabulary and a bad case of logorrhea. I have to not only disagree, but take exception to this. Tara: I’ll have to accept your judgement long term incurable active drunk and multi substance abuser. IOW, a MENTAL CASE. Like yourself and the rest of your PALS here abHOWETS.  that training certain behaviours is more difficult in NYC than other places – Seems AA sez it’s a LAME EXXXCUSE SICK PEOPLE USE to BLAME "PEOPE PLACES and THINGS" as what CAUSES a DRUNK to DRINK.  the bagels would certainly make for  a challenging distraction. ONLY FOR A COUPLE OF MINUTES TILL THE DOG LEARNS NOT TO TAKE IT.  I’ve only visited the city and agree that getting a dog to a point that you had attention heeling on Broadway would be a challenge. IOW, you’re gonna BLAME "PEOPLE PLACES and THINGS" instead of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for your own FAILURE to understand HOWE to pupperly handle and train a dog. Still:  this man’s "Natural Dog Training" nonsense Yeah. NONESENSE. is unproven by anyone but himself, Well, seems that’s your standard EXXXCUSE for dismissing ANY non violent trainer who’s ever posted here abHOWETS. REMEMBER?  and if he’s telling the world that he’s teaching "advanced" topics in dog training with his mumbojumbo, You mean INSTEAD of MURDERIN dogs like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena? CuriHOWES ain’t it, HOWE COME you MURDER dogs and call Lee and ALL NON VIOLENT TRAINERS FRAUDS and LIARS. REMEMBER?  and that he somehow has the secret to succeeding with dogs, Yeah. It STARTS with NOT HURTIN and INTIMDATING them like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER, kwbrown? he’s putting one over on people. You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena. You HURT INTIMIDATED and MURDERED her.  For Pete’s sake:  off-lead heeling is CD-level work! The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students REPORT achieving that level pryor to 4 months old.  A remote down doesn’t need acres of pastoral fields – Cut the crap.  it takes patience and slow extension of the distance and circumstances under which the drop is requested. No it don’t. ANY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students achieve that pryor to 4 months of age. Trainin dogs is EZ if you don’t HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER them like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER, kwbrown? You can do this in your apartment hallway. You think so? He’s never demonstrated the success of his miraculous methods where it counts:  in a competitive ring of any kind, where training is measured against stable benchmarks. Oh? HOWE abHOWET "MEASURING" Lee’s SUCCESS against YOUR OWN DEAD DOG Teena you HURT INTIMIDATED and MURDERED? If he’s so good, why can’t he go put a CD (at least) on Ol’ Fred, instead of spending his time typing his little heart out (with breaks taken to pester and annoy owners of other dogs who have the misfortune to meet them in the park)? Perhaps that’s on accHOWENT of the simpletons in the obedience and field trial rings are not the kind of company decent people prefer to keep? And if you don’t believe that this fool is running off at the keyboard, then we’ll have to agree to disagree. You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena on accHOWENT of you couldn’t stop HURTIN and INTIMIDATING her. REMEMBER, kwbrown? Kate and Storm and Fetus Petitus the FCRs HOWEDY shelly & The Boys, So, any suggestions on how to break the countersurfing habit? The ONLY advice has been to HURT your dog, marie. With Coda, it was easy, That so? he just wasn’t overly motivated (or rewarded) by food on the counter. But you didn’t leave STUFF there for him, either, on accHOWENT of YOU NEVER KNOW when your TRAININ might FAIL. With Bodhi, it’s a different story. That so?   No matter how many times I tell him "Uh-uh!"  or  "No!" or whatever, Oh. You mean no matter HOWE many times you VARIABLY REINFORCE the behavior by punishing and scolding him. if there is food (or a pan that once had food in it) on the countertop left where he can reach it AND no one is home, there’s no stopping him. Right. THAT’S HOWE COME PUNISHMENT FAILS. You’re a mental case. When I am home, even during the night, no one messes with anything. On accHOWENT of your dogs are AFRAID of you. But, I know that if I were to entrust him in the day while were are at work?  Forget it, all bets are off. What BETS? You could BET YOUR LIFE your dog will STEAL whatever he can find on accHOWENT of he KNOWS you can’t HURT and INTIMIDATE him if you’re not there to punish him. THAT’S HOWE COME dogs get separation anxiHOWESNESS car sickness and fear of thunder, on accHOWENT of the CON-TROLLER ain’t there to HURT and INTIMIDATE them.   That includes the small trashcan in our bedroom that usually has used tissues or holey socks in it. Yeah. Your dog might KILL hisself on them like janet boss’s dog nearly done. It also includes hair scruchies & boxes of tissues. Yeah. On accHOWENT of you hurt and intimidate your dog instead of trainin IT. They all get put out of reach when I go to work. Of curse. UNLESS you FORGET. Like HOWE your pal bentcajungirl aka perry’s DEAD DOG Maggie ate Gorilla Glue and shit the bed on her.   If not, I figure it’s my own fault for leaving them in his reach Like bencajungirl aka perry done. when I *know* he’ll most likely get into/destroy them. That’s on accHOWENT of your dog knows you can’t PUNISH him if you’re not there to catch him IN THE ACT… IOW, you’re a dog abuser / mental case. Shelly & The Boys "Just Want To Second Jerry’s Method For Dealing With This (Destructive Separation Anxiety). I’ve Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now And It’s Worked ‘EVERY TIME The Very First Time’ – marilyn, Trainer, 33 Years Experience. Aloha Sunny, Just follow the training program to the letter, no matter how insignificant some of the step seem to be and your pupy will be a very well behaved dog in a few days. I would seriously consider backing out of the training classes as they will conflict with the Wit’s End principles. I went the training route first, and still had problems until I found Wits’ End. Now I have two "new and improved" dogs. You won’t be disappointed if you follow the program. Good luck, Hoku —– Original Message —– To: The Puppy Wizard Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 6:12 PM Aloha Jerry, Just wanted to let you know that the surrogate toy technique is working wonders.  I have not had a shredded sheet for over a week now.  It is nice to be able to leave the bed made and come home to a made bed. Your program is awesome, but you already know that.  Keep up the good work! Hoku Chris Williams writes: "The FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what I’ve always done without thinking of it as "training". New stuff, I’ve used. His anchoring technique erased the last of Mac’s fireworks trauma,"        Engrossing account, Anthony.  Our best to Angel and your family.        A friend, who socializes the kittens I’ve taken from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.        She reports far fewer panic problems than she’s had before. .. Tracy, What worked for me, in just one storm, was to praise the dog after each clap of thunder, telling him he’s a Good Dog! This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.  The next time it thundered, he did not even react at  all–you could not tell it was the same dog as before. There was more thunder just the other day, and same thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no cowering, whimpering, trying to hide at all, it was that simple. I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non- abusive way of handling dogs WORKS. Wonderfully. Praise. It’s that simple. Juanita "Estel J. Hines"

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Response:

HOWEDY kwbrown,

I also teach advanced stuff like heeling off-lead, down at a distance, coming when called while running full speed in the other direction, etc. You call that *advanced*?

Well, not compared to you MURDERIN your own DEAD DOG Teena on accHOWENT of you couldn’t brush her withHOWET hurtin and intimidating her. I thought you were the guy who said leashes were abusive tools…

Perhaps compared to your SHOCK collar. and here you are, telling us that heeling off- leash is *advanced*?

What would happen if you had Teena off leash withHOWET a shock collar? She’d run HOWET on you.   Am I to take this to mean that you don’t  teach heeling off-leash from the start?

When do you teach the DROP DEAD command? Many of us do, you know.

That so? You mean, with your shock collar? You CANNOT start a dog off lead with a shock collar on accHOWENT of the dog will RUN HOWET on you when you BURN him.  Using those outmoded and ineffective training models you so scorn.

You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena just a few weeks ago on accHOWENT of you couldn’t stop HURTIN and INTIMIDATING her as you was taught by sindy SADIST mooreon of k-9web.com and tommy sorenson and Master Of Deception blankman and lying frosty dahl, janet boss and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn. "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ’s pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? REMEMBER, kwbrown? Until now, I just thought you were a pompous  windbag – but now, Lee Charles Kelly, I call you a *fraud.*

That so? Seems like you’re the MENTAL CASE who HURTS INTIMIDATES and MURDERS dogs and will do and say ANY THING to DEFEND your alleged RIGHT to HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER dogs as your PALS mentioned above have been doin since DAY WON… REMEMBER, kwbrown? If you’re pawning off simple intermediate obedience work as "advanced" on your adoring public, you’re nothing more than a con artist with an advanced vocabulary and a bad case of logorrhea.

Looks like your FEELINS are HURT. HJM and I come from the very opposite ends of the political spectrum.

You’re both liars dog abusers cowards and active long term incurable mental cases.  I disagree with his style,

You FOLLOWED his advice and MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER? and he has *really* pissed me off more than once.

Well perhaps that’s on accHOWENT of he’s a vulgar lying dog abusing mysoginist and you’re a pathetic lying dog abusing coward?   I’m not sure he’d even set foot in my happily  adopted home, Soviet Canuckistan.  But this  time, I’m with him.

You bums can’t post here abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE on accHOWENT of you’re liars dog abusers cowards and active long term incurable mental cases, as you’re proving right NHOWE. I fully acknowledge that any of his dogs could kick my dog’s butt in a field trial,

That so? HOWE can you say that? Your PAL tommy sorenson aka jack morrison aka joey finnochiario aka dogman is a anonymHOWES lying dog abusing punk thug coward. He HAS NO RECORD of EVER showing or trainin a dog. EVER. ANY WHERE, on accHOWENT of HE’S A anonymHOWES lying dog abusing COWARD. REMEMBER? So, as far as ANY WON here knows, tommy has NEVER EVEN SEEN a dog. REMEMBER? so here’s an offer, you charlatan.

Let’s talk abHOWET you hurtin intimidatin and MURDERIN your own DEAD DOG Teena?  We’ll make it easier.

You can’t post here abHOWET nodoGgamenedMOORE. Come deal with a less-experienced trainer and her off-breeed dog, trained only for hunt tests.  Only to the intermediate level.  Next time you and Fred are out this way for some book signing, prove to me how easy it is to apply your training religion to some *real* work.

Your "REAL WORK" is BASIC stuff for Lee. Five birds.  Two land, two water, one blind. We’ll keep it easy for poor ol’ Fred and keep  everything under 150 yards.

It’d take Lee a few days to train his dog for that. It took you two years and you MURDERED Teena over the same PROBLEM.   We’ll keep it fair and run everything under CKC Senior Hunt rules.

Let’s just talk abHOWET you MURDERIN your own DEAD DOG Teena, before calling Lee a FRAUD. C’mon, Lee Charles Kelley.  Put your absurd theories to some use instead of parading yourself as an expert while, all along, teaching simple commands that should be in most dogs’ vocabularies as "advanced."

Like the DROP DEAD command, kwbrown? Kate and Affinity Easy Sailing JH WCX CGN the FCR

HOWEDY kwbrown,

What do you think the chances are that there can ever be one central and essentially exhaustive source of information regarding dogs? And would having one extensive source even be  that much of a quantum leap forward, given today’s Internet search-engine capabilities? For a very long time, I have fallen back on the K9web.com FAQs,

INDEED? You mean THIS?: "Don’t Let Your Dog Scream. Use Your Hand To Hold His Muzzle Closed And Tell Him To Quit Moaning," cindymooreon. but they seem to have disappeared recently.

Perhaps that’s on accHOWENT of The Puppy Wizard.  I can’t pull them up today.

And you won’t be able t o read Master Of Deception blankman’s viciHOWES web pages pretty soon, either. The breed FAQs were generally strong and there were some good basic behaviour articles. Diane’s Dog-Play site has had lots of great stuff for years, too.

INDEEDY! What a recommendation! Kate

You JUST MURDERED your own DEAD DOG on accHOWENT of THEIR EXXXPERT ADVICE! Here’s HOWE COME: "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ’s pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I’d Call It A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn’t HaveDone It If He Thought Solo Couldn’t Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie. You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER? To Hold His Muzzle Closed And Tell Him To Quit Moaning,"  cindymooreon. Hey, check it out? Here’s our cindy "Don’t Let Your Dog Scream" mooreon’s forced fetch page, the one she refused to discuss and threatened to sue us for quoting from. So here it is in full. Barf warning.

Isn’t that funny?

No. I can microchip dogs without blinking

Yes. You only feel good when you’re hurting something. (and check out the needle guage on those puppies sometime if you haven’t before)

Looks can be deceiving like your pronged spiked pinch choke collar. HOWE can we know what a dog feels? You bums want a new definition for hurt. We got to have broken bones or blistered skin to have hurt. but wuss out at the thought of getting a needle let alone giving it to myself.

No doubt. Sadists and cowards only enjoy inflicting pain. –Cindy

Here’s MOORE reasons why our Gang Of Thugs are EMBARRASSED by their own works. Here’s the post cindymooreon of our faqs page at k9web threatened to sue us for copyright infringement if we quoted it: What is Force Fetching All About? by Cindy Tittle Moore Copyright 1997,1998 by the author; all rights reserved. THE FORCE FETCH Alright! Now you are (finally) ready to force fetch your dog. I repeat, you want to have an experienced person help you out, someone who has already force fetched her own dogs whether for obedience or field. This step in the training entails what is termed avoidance behavior. In a nutshell, the dog is taught how to "turn off" a negative stimulus. He is carefully taught that he has complete control over it. This is a very effective way of teaching, but does require a more astute sense of timing than some other training methods and is very difficult for some people to do, for a variety of reasons. However, if the dog properly knows HOLD at this point, it’s easily done with a minimum of fuss. Return to your quiet starting place, with the dog on a collar and leash in front of you, sitting quietly. Instead of opening his mouth as you have been for the HOLD, put your hand through the dog’s collar (to hold him steady) and with your thumb and forefinger pinch the tip of his ears and say TAKE IT (or FETCH, or whatever you want) Watch his mouth closely — the moment he opens his mouth, pop that dumbbell in, let go of his ear but not the collar, and PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. Do this three or four times per session. When he is opening his mouth in anticipation of the dumbbell, the next step is to hold the dumbbell just past his lips. This next step is for him to move his head forward that inch (or half inch) necessary to get the dumbbell. At this point, he has a pretty good notion that getting that darned thing into his mouth is the way to turn off the ear pinch. Most dogs will lean forward and get it. That’s his second milestone! Praise, praise, praise and … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY kwbrown,

berlin.de: If you’re pawning off simple intermediate obedience work as "advanced" on your adoring public, you’re nothing more than a con artist with an advanced vocabulary and a bad case of logorrhea. I have to not only disagree, but take exception to this. Tara: I’ll have to accept your judgement

long term incurable active drunk and multi substance abuser. IOW, a MENTAL CASE. Like yourself and the rest of your PALS here abHOWETS.  that training certain behaviours is more difficult in NYC than other places –

Seems AA sez it’s a LAME EXXXCUSE SICK PEOPLE USE to BLAME "PEOPE PLACES and THINGS" as what CAUSES a DRUNK to DRINK.  the bagels would certainly make for  a challenging distraction.

ONLY FOR A COUPLE OF MINUTES TILL THE DOG LEARNS NOT TO TAKE IT.  I’ve only visited the city and agree that getting a dog to a point that you had attention heeling on Broadway would be a challenge.

IOW, you’re gonna BLAME "PEOPLE PLACES and THINGS" instead of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for your own FAILURE to understand HOWE to pupperly handle and train a dog. Still:  this man’s "Natural Dog Training" nonsense

Yeah. NONESENSE. is unproven by anyone but himself,

Well, seems that’s your standard EXXXCUSE for dismissing ANY non violent trainer who’s ever posted here abHOWETS. REMEMBER?  and if he’s telling the world that he’s teaching "advanced" topics in dog training with his mumbojumbo,

You mean INSTEAD of MURDERIN dogs like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena? CuriHOWES ain’t it, HOWE COME you MURDER dogs and call Lee and ALL NON VIOLENT TRAINERS FRAUDS and LIARS. REMEMBER?  and that he somehow has the secret to succeeding with dogs,

Yeah. It STARTS with NOT HURTIN and INTIMDATING them like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER, kwbrown? he’s putting one over on people.

You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena. You HURT INTIMIDATED and MURDERED her.  For Pete’s sake:  off-lead heeling is CD-level work!

The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students REPORT achieving that level pryor to 4 months old.  A remote down doesn’t need acres of pastoral fields –

Cut the crap.  it takes patience and slow extension of the distance and circumstances under which the drop is requested.

No it don’t. ANY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students achieve that pryor to 4 months of age. Trainin dogs is EZ if you don’t HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER them like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER, kwbrown? You can do this in your apartment hallway.

You think so? He’s never demonstrated the success of his miraculous methods where it counts:  in a competitive ring of any kind, where training is measured against stable benchmarks.

Oh? HOWE abHOWET "MEASURING" Lee’s SUCCESS against YOUR OWN DEAD DOG Teena you HURT INTIMIDATED and MURDERED? If he’s so good, why can’t he go put a CD (at least) on Ol’ Fred, instead of spending his time typing his little heart out (with breaks taken to pester and annoy owners of other dogs who have the misfortune to meet them in the park)?

Perhaps that’s on accHOWENT of the simpletons in the obedience and field trial rings are not the kind of company decent people prefer to keep? And if you don’t believe that this fool is running off at the keyboard, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.

You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena on accHOWENT of you couldn’t stop HURTIN and INTIMIDATING her. REMEMBER, kwbrown? Kate and Storm and Fetus Petitus the FCRs

HOWEDY shelly & The Boys, So, any suggestions on how to break the countersurfing habit?

The ONLY advice has been to HURT your dog, marie. With Coda, it was easy,

That so? he just wasn’t overly motivated (or rewarded) by food on the counter.

But you didn’t leave STUFF there for him, either, on accHOWENT of YOU NEVER KNOW when your TRAININ might FAIL. With Bodhi, it’s a different story.

That so?   No matter how many times I tell him "Uh-uh!"  or  "No!" or whatever,

Oh. You mean no matter HOWE many times you VARIABLY REINFORCE the behavior by punishing and scolding him. if there is food (or a pan that once had food in it) on the countertop left where he can reach it AND no one is home, there’s no stopping him.

Right. THAT’S HOWE COME PUNISHMENT FAILS. You’re a mental case. When I am home, even during the night, no one messes with anything.

On accHOWENT of your dogs are AFRAID of you. But, I know that if I were to entrust him in the day while were are at work?  Forget it, all bets are off.

What BETS? You could BET YOUR LIFE your dog will STEAL whatever he can find on accHOWENT of he KNOWS you can’t HURT and INTIMIDATE him if you’re not there to punish him. THAT’S HOWE COME dogs get separation anxiHOWESNESS car sickness and fear of thunder, on accHOWENT of the CON-TROLLER ain’t there to HURT and INTIMIDATE them.   That includes the small trashcan in our bedroom that usually has used tissues or holey socks in it.

Yeah. Your dog might KILL hisself on them like janet boss’s dog nearly done. It also includes hair scruchies & boxes of tissues.

Yeah. On accHOWENT of you hurt and intimidate your dog instead of trainin IT. They all get put out of reach when I go to work.

Of curse. UNLESS you FORGET. Like HOWE your pal bentcajungirl aka perry’s DEAD DOG Maggie ate Gorilla Glue and shit the bed on her.   If not, I figure it’s my own fault for leaving them in his

reach Like bencajungirl aka perry done. when I *know* he’ll most likely get into/destroy them.

That’s on accHOWENT of your dog knows you can’t PUNISH him if you’re not there to catch him IN THE ACT… IOW, you’re a dog abuser / mental case. Shelly & The Boys

"Just Want To Second Jerry’s Method For Dealing With This (Destructive Separation Anxiety). I’ve Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now And It’s Worked ‘EVERY TIME The Very First Time’ – marilyn, Trainer, 33 Years Experience. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aloha Sunny, Just follow the training program to the letter, no matter how insignificant some of the step seem to be and your pupy will be a very well behaved dog in a few days. I would seriously consider backing out of the training classes as they will conflict with the Wit’s End principles. I went the training route first, and still had problems until I found Wits’ End. Now I have two "new and improved" dogs. You won’t be disappointed if you follow the program. Good luck, Hoku

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– To: The Puppy Wizard Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 6:12 PM Aloha Jerry, Just wanted to let you know that the surrogate toy technique is working wonders.  I have not had a shredded sheet for over a week now.  It is nice to be able to leave the bed made and come home to a made bed. Your program is awesome, but you already know that.  Keep up the good work! Hoku Chris Williams writes: "The FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what I’ve always done without thinking of it as "training". New stuff, I’ve used. His anchoring technique erased the last of Mac’s fireworks trauma,"        Engrossing account, Anthony.  Our best to Angel and your family.        A friend, who socializes the kittens I’ve taken from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.        She reports far fewer panic problems than she’s had before. .. Tracy, What worked for me, in just one storm, was to praise the dog after each clap of thunder, telling him he’s a Good Dog! This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.  The next time it thundered, he did not even react at  all–you could not tell it was the same dog as before. There was more thunder just the other day, and same thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no cowering, whimpering, trying to hide at all, it was that simple. I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non- abusive way of handling dogs WORKS. Wonderfully. Praise. It’s that simple. Juanita Until i read the Jerry method of Bark reductioon, it went something like this with our 11 month old puppy "Yoshi" Yoshi: Bark, bark. us: HUSH Youshi. us: Hush Youshi. it stopped when Yoshi got tired barking. We decided to try the Jerry method. :Yoshi:  BARK, BARK. US: GOOD Yoshi, Good Boy, who is it? Yoshi Bark, Bark. US: It’s ok, good boy Yoshi, We know them. Yosh without fail, now stops after we say that. I must say, it is so much more fun, when we can praise him, to deal with things like this. Thanks Jerry

… read more »

Response:

HOWEDY suja, Your posting history will prove you to be a dog abusing mental case. Your own dog Khan broke your arm and attacked and mauled the Malamute you brought in. REMEMBER?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I disagree with some of his current positions.  But you were being very dismissive and, I thought, somewhat egotistical to say that *you* would "cut him some slack". If you don’t understand sarcasm when you see it…. In what ways do you believe that behavioral phenomena are not determined by preceding events or natural laws? Did I say *anything* about behavioral phenomena?  I said that he is a determinist.  In the general context of what I was saying, it essentially means that some things, even when they are the *opinions* of highly educated, intelligent people, can be disagreed with.  He believes a lot of things I don’t agree with.  He could be Albert Einstein, and I would still disagree with those same positions.  You somehow seemed to suggest that it is heresy to disagree with well published, well reputed people. I think that’s what I was getting at.  We’re talking about how to determine the cause of a behavior, and to do so we should either temporarily eliminate anything that’s more complex and look for the simplest answer first before deciding that a more complex answer is the right one.  It seems to me that you, and everyone else who believes in dominance and hierarchy, haven’t done that. No, you are suggesting that we ONLY look at your explanation for certain behaviors.  I have no problems accepting that you have a theory for certain phenomenon, and I have one as well.  At the moment, mine happens to be the more prevalent one.  It seems to work well for me in the context of my everyday interactions with dogs, both mine and others’. Doesn’t mean I am right, and I may well be proven wrong in the long run.   If it happens, it happens.  Until someone offers proof to back up their assertions, I will take it as their opinion. So again, I’m getting bits and pieces.  Nice. You ask for information, I give it to you.  What I am saying is this.  From everyday interaction with dozens of dogs, I’ve observed behavior among dogs that backs up my beliefs.  Dogs that have never seen Khan before in their lives act in a certain manner towards him as do many dogs that have known him for years.  Many of these dogs do not act in the same manner towards any other dogs, regardless of size, age, gender, etc.  For that matter, people who have lots of dog experience (even new ones) tend to make similar observations, so I know it isn’t just me. On rare occasions, certain dogs will act in a manner that is completely the opposite of this, what he considers to be challenging.  Left up to their own devices, it will escalate into a fight – I don’t know how severe, because it has never been allowed to go that far.  Age, gender, size, etc. of these dogs don’t matter either, although they *tend* to be medium to large males that are older than one year.  And generally speaking, I can predict when I can expect trouble. You mean, that’s your belief about what he does.  How do you know that’s what he’s doing or intending to do? Without reading his mind, neither of us do.  At the moment, I do not have an alternate theory that adequately explains all the interactions I see. Yeah, I got that already.  But from what I’ve read so far about your position I don’t think there’s anything I can say that will prove it to you. Thank goodness.  We can let it rest then.  I am perfectly happy with my theories and you’re perfectly happy with yours.  I happen to think you’re wrong, and you think the same of me. I love a happy ending. Suja

Response:

HOWEDY sinofabitch,

Forget everything you know about dogs.

kwbrown would LIKE that. We coulf FORGET she recently MURDERED her own DEAD DOG Teena on accHOWENT of she couldn’t stop HURTIN and INTIMIDATING IT. REMEMBER? Erase your experience from your brain.

kwbrown jerked and choked and locked Teena in a box until she went INSANE, as The Amazing Puppy Wizard warned her she would.  Lee is here to save you from yourself,

janet and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn and tommy sorenson told her to HURT and INTIMIDATE the dog MOORE, after she first started turning on her. ‘coz he’s a Published Author.

kwbrown’s CASE HISTORY of abuse is indellibly inscribed in The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s Archives on Google.   I haven’t had time to reply to much of this thread

That’s WIZE of you, sinofabitch.  (and don’t really have time to be posting now <G),

Right. You can’t post here abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE. but… I find it interesting that Lee has dodged or ignored the issue each time

CITES please? I’ve mentioned that he apparently has little  or no experience in handling/training high- drive working dogs.

You’re a lying dog abusing mental case. REMEMBER, sinofabitch? He also didn’t reply when I asked "exactly what have you trained pet dogs to do?"

Perhaps Lee wasn’t interested in playin grab ass with a lying dog abusing mental case, sinofabitch.  in response to his saying that he has  "only trained pet dogs".

Yeah. Like marilyn and Canis55. REMEMBER?   Last but not least, he claimed that the behaviours I referred to in dogs were the  result of "mishandling"  etc…

Right. It’s all in The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s Archives in your own written words, which YOU DENY. REMEMBER? which I’m trying to figure out exactly who has "mishandled" the wolves, feral dogs, and other wild canids the behaviours have been observed in.

Perhaps you do it right through the ether, eh?: sinofabitch writes: What I have said- repeatedly – is that he took posts from two different people, took pieces of them out of context, cobbled them together, then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly." and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is exactly what he did. The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context, and Jerry’s faked "quote" is downright meaningless. Here’s Jerry’s version   "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My    Right Arm  Over The Lab’s Shoulder,    Grabbed Her Opposite  Foot With My    Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,    Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into    Her Throat  And Said "GRRRR!" And    Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch. Here’s yours;   "I dropped the leash, threw my   right arm over the Lab’s shoulder,   grabbed her opposite foot with my   left hand, rolled her on her side,   leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and   nipped her ear.   –Sara Sionnach

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. "When you get bagged for lying you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY.

He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing.  He didn’t even blink an eye. Janet Boss

I can’t imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can’t remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Here is a video from Fred which I have a few concerns about (and maybe Fred can weigh in if he sees fit), THE SAME "FRED" that johnny would invite to heelp his shelter dogs learn RESPECT. This is a video about Nero being taught to get on a skateboard. http://www.studioonline.com/playvideos.asp?crypt=A7E284B9ABDFCE0F or http://tinyurl.com/389al In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his head all around. I’m not SHORE why he’s doing that. If he’s doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much "experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how nationally "respected" they are/were. If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around because he is happy and for no other reason, well, then, never mind. I’ve just never seen this kind of behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can explain what would cause a dog to move his head like that. Here’s a other: http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh Even your PALS the "DOG LOVERS" on the abuse groups were HOWEtraged by those stunts. "I’d call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won’t touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller. "I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I’ll state my opinion once and won’t defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we’ve come a long way since then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she’s been rewarded for coming, but she’s never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming. Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell?" "It is by muteness that a dog becomes so utterly  beyond value. With him, words play no torturing  Like a confessor Priest? Don’t bet your dog won’t  tell on you… Their behaviors reflect our words,  actions and training quirks. Jerry HOWE, The  Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~  )  

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe all day today, I’m convinced that the shaking is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I’ll continue keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything up, I don’t see symptoms of anything neurological– and the vet agrees. –Lia

"Things are beginning to get much worse day by day and the vets seem unable to help. http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV" THAT’S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and ASYLUM ESCAPEES. while walking backwards

Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what it felt like to me when I got shocked by Hope’s collar. It felt like a bomb going off in my hand and forearm.

how effective are these electronic fences in keeping a dog on a property???? Some run through it. Others get shocked and become too scared to go out in the yard anymore. Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog, because the dog got caught right in the path of the shock and will now not go near his person, won’t go outside. Just hides under a desk in the house.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And Sally responded: Who said that?  I would never do or recommend that, and neither would most of the regulars on here. Sally Hennessey I’ve posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so. Take it out of context and you’d think I was flinging puppies across the room! here’s what I said (keep in mind that we’re talking about a 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):  A small scruff shake is appropriate if he’s very persistant.

  Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make   it  clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily   misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff   of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?   I think I’d phrase it something like "if the puppy is very   persistant, it  can be appropriate to take hold of the   loose skin at the back of the neck and give a slight   shake to the *skin*".   Janet’s not talking about actually shaking   the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is   abusive." THAT’S INSANE. AIN’T IT. So’s this: Here’s professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research at UofWI, marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation," dermer: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy,  "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," … read more »

Response:

You mean the TENSION caused by withholding the bribes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you think causes the "puppy zippy zoomies"?  You don’t see that as a way to release emotional tension? I’d like to talk more about "puppy zoomies."  I’ve never read about it or discussed it, so my theories are based on observation alone. However, it does appear to me that your statement is true.  Puppy zoomies seem to be an outlet for overloads. The most common zoomies seem to occur when the puppy has been playing hard, working himself up into a state of over-excitement, and especially in the evenings if he’s been cooped up all day. I had a private class this week, with one of the most motivated puppies I’ve ever seen.  If you had a treat, he would do anything anything anything to get it, and was bright enough to pick up on what was required very quickly.  He never lost focus.  Even in the breaks, he was all "what else? what else do you want me to do?"  So for him, the session was intense and fast-paced. At one point when I was demonstrating something with him, Tony just started the zoomies.  It was the first time I’d seen a pup do it out of the blue, without physical stimulation.  He zoomed about 3 times, then came and sat in front of me, all ready to work again. So yes, it seems to be a way to release tension. Canine Action Dog Trainer http://www.canineaction.com My Kids, My Students, My Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html

Response:

HOWEDY tommy, [] (They’re also based on flawed and outmoded theories of behavior.)

INDEEDY. There’s sufficient documentation DISCREDITING every thing these simpletons who choke shock beat and murder dogs think they know in the post below. Of course, Moonbeam Man neglects to mention that, even with all the supposed "flaws," these "outmoded theories" STILL WORK GREAT!

That’s on accHOWENT of you LIKE to hurt intimdiate and murder dogs, tommy. If your stinkin pain fear force and intimidation WORKED you wouldn’t NEED to MURDER dogs. Would you, tommy. You like to BLAME THE DOG when you can’t TRAIN IT, tommy. The Amazing Puppy Wizard and Lee blame the training method, tommy. And they’re much less filing!

Yeah. Meanwhile, you can’t post here abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE. He also refuses to compare the RESULTS of his "natural" training with the results obtained by "flawed" training, based on "outmoded theories."

We GOT the RESULTS, tommy. YOU MURDER DOGS. The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World REPORT 100% TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CON-TROLL, NEARLY INSTANTLY. You call their CASE HISTORY DATA, LIES. REMEMBER, tommy? And that’s not by freakin’ accident either.  ;)

Right. It’s on accHOWENT of you’ll do and say anything to defend your alleged right to jerk choke shock beat and murder dogs. Handsome Jack Morrison

There ain’t a trainer or behaviorist in the Whole Wild World who’ll dispute The Amazing Puppy Wizard on accHOWENT of THAT would be tantamHOWENT to PROFESSIONAL SUICIDE: HOWEDY William,

Help! My 2.5 year old Lab has started defecating in our dining room (she has been going in the same spot)!

HOWEsbreaking is INSTINCTIVE. The first time I wrote it off to an accident.

Dogs seldom have accidents. If your dog is having HOWEsbreaking problems it’s on accHOWENT of he’s SICK or he’s MAKING A STATEMENT that he’s UNHAPPY. The second time I wrote it off to the fact I’m  travelling for work again but this has been going on for almost four weeks!

That could be HOWE COME he’s UNHAPPY. Either THAT, or he’s SICK. Of curse, he COULD be UNHAPPY abHOWET LOTS of STUFF goin on in his life. My wife, and kids, are ready to kill the dog!

LIKE THAT, William. JUST LIKE THAT. She is a great dog otherwise and spends a lot of time with the family.

HOWE many times a day do they have to correct her by just telling her "NO!"? That could be the only problem, William. Any suggestions????

You can CURE ALL behavior problems NEARLY INSTANTLY if you follow the instructions in your FREE copy of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com. Thanks in advance!

You won’t be gettin no advice from the liars dog abusers cowards and active long term incurable MENTAL CASES you’re askin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill HOWEDY Professor Dermer, Has your vet considered the chronic ear infection is a symptom of adverse reaction to food (ARF)? Chronic infections and "idiopathic" DIS-EASES are most often associated with STRESS, professor. It’s one of the stonger signals of an ARF condition. Could be. But that’s less likely than a STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME as you’ve seen in your own dog. ARF?!! https://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/arf-l.html Animal Reinforcement Forum The Amazing Puppy Wizard just took a look see. That’s some pretty brutal stuff they’re talkin, Professor. The Amazing Puppy Wizard though you’d LEARNED MUCH MOORE than THAT in the five years you’ve been studying NON PHYSICAL CON-TROLL of all behaviors using the CASE HISTORY DATA in The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s Archives on Google. ARF is a mailing list for students, researchers, behaviorists, and practitioners across the globe interested in animal training and management issues. Perhaps you’ll introduce The Amazing Puppy Wizard? They’re a bunch of IMBECILES who choke and shock and bribe and can’t achieve 100% NEARLY INSTANT NON PHYSICAL CON-TROLL. ARF’s primary focus is on reinforcement INSTEAD OF EFFECTIVE CONDITIONING. "Reinforcement NEVER ends" on accHOWENT of the dog will NOT do the behaviors when you’re NOT REINFORCING or MANAGING IT. and behavior analysis applied to animals, You’ve SEEN the ANAL-ytic DATA The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students REPORT RIGHT HERE. as well as the research and scientific principles that describe such procedures. Yeah. They was talkin abHOWET dr. sidman and karen pryor… Seems The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World NEGATES their malarkey, Professor. YOU CAN’T ARGUE WITH THE DATA. Also, ARF focuses on ANY management procedures/tools beyond those just described by operant procedures, Your SCIENTIFIC STUDIES PROVES your "operant procedures" FAIL CONSISTENTLY, Professor: Dr. George VonHilsheimer writes in "Is there a SCIENCE of BEHAVIOR?": "Valette 1966 is a complete trivialization of scientific findings. It overstates the case for reinforcement theory. No careful researcher would contend that operant techniques CAN ANY THING MORE than modify SHORT TERM BEHAVIOR in a highly controlled and limited environment with a large number of skillful experimenters. Certainly the most elaborate studies have shown that the withdrawal or temprary inefficiency of the reward system is immediately followed by CESSATION of the programmed behavior. In fortunate contrast to this depressing paper is the research reported by Whelan (1966) who makes the simple but profHOWEND caveat that "It is only through CORRECT, EFFICIENT APPLICATION (of operant principles) that children’s behavor can be changed to the extent that they can subsequently contribute to the REAL WORLD in which they live." " "The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior Never Change, Or They’d Not Be Scientific And Would Not Obtain Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results For All Handler’s And All Dogs, As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual," The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) Dr. Von continues: "Whelan illustrates the simple nature or the learning process by referring to Ferster’s engaging study of two three year old chimpanzees taught mathematics through simple procedures. Whelan carries this EVIDENCE a step futher by pointing HOWET it’s applicability to disturbed children." A Dog Is A Dog As A Child Is A Child As A Kat Is A Kat. All Critters Only Respond In Predictable Innate, Normal, Natural, Instinctive, Reflexive, Ways To Circumstances And Situations Of Their Environments Which We Create For Them. ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture." We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT. In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS FAILURE MEANS DEATH. SAME SAME SAME SAME, For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS. Dr. Von continues: "If chimpanzees CAN LEARN mathematics through step by step learning AT THEIR OWN PACE, reinforced primarily by CORRECT ANSWERS rather than with "fruit loops and rasins", we can assume that even developmentally RETARDED or CONfHOWENDED children CAN LEARN as well. Moreover, Whelan makes the EXXXTREMELY important point that while most teachers assume that learning takes place verbally, primarily it is a non verbal process.. Unfortunately Whelan limits himself to the problem that "teachers must not only modify or remove specific deviant behaviors, but must also develop socially acceptable behavior patterns in the classroom and classroom conditioned goals, NOT LEARNING. Other researchers have emphasized the importance ofadult behaviors in conditioning classroom behavior. An EXXXCELLENT review of this researchshowd that tantrum behavior, excessive crawling and dependency, isolated play, passivity, spelling failure, and other problem behaviorscan be managed by altering habitual adult responses to children (Harris, Wolf and Baer, 1964) . Such RESEARCHholds GREATER PROMISE in that alteration of the conditioning social environment seems to provide more STABLE and LASTING CHANGES than "M and M’s". Moreover, a great deal of work has been done developing EFFECTIVE techniques of behavior modificaton through the conditioning social environment of peers (Hartup, 1964). These directions would seem more PRODUCTIVE than a simple minded trainslation of the Skinner cage to the classroom. Skinner (1963) pointed HOWET that operant techniques can "be utilized fully ONLY IF we REDEFINE the GOALS of education and the CONDITIONS in the educational environment under which those goals may be reached… (through) a DIFFERENT KIND of educational research which is much more closely concerned with the

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Response:

HOWEDY Lee,

.. You see them as normal, I don’t.

To say the least. It’d heelp if you was familiar with suja’s postin history. Her own fear aggressive man shy dog Khan broke her arm pulllin her DHOWEN behind trying to attack a innocent critter. Khan attacked an opposite sex Malamute suja RESCUED from the P-HOWEND and took them both to the animal HOWEspital and returned the bitch to the P-HOWEND with a record of dog fighting. The dog got LUCKY. Next day she was "adopted" by a real dog lover and was eatin HOWETA the same BHOWEL as the pre existing HOWES bitch eats from with NO problem. ALL behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. I see them as the result of bad training or mishandling.

AS STATED and PROVEN by the RESULTS The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World. When dogs are trained the natural way you almost never see "dominant" behaviors.

EXXXACTLY. That’s HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREEE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World REPORT CURING ALL temperament and behavior problems NEARLY INSTANTLY. Suja:What do you mean by "dominant" behaviors?

BWEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!! Lee doesn’t SEE "dominant" behaviors on accHOWENT of THEY DON’T EXIST. ALL aggression is FEAR. ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. suja:  When my dog goes to the dog park for example, certain dogs will crawl in front of him and give belly.  Others will muzzle lick.  Happens when he’s walking around, minding his own business, and when he’s sitting down.  So, the owners of these dogs trained/mishandled their dogs into being submissive?

Yeah. That’s correct. That happens from your SOCIALIZATION and bullshit like leah’s PAW PATROL in puppy class. I haven’t observed you or the other dogs first-hand

You’ll see it all in her POSTING HISTORY, Lee. suja likes to jerk and choke her dog on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar on accHOWENT of it ain’t CRUEL like a CHOKE collar. so I can only surmise.

suja HURTS and INTIMIDATES her dogs and has POSTED HER PREDICTABLE RESULTS.  My feeling from reading your description and  relating it back to my own observations about similar behaviors I’ve seen is that the "submissive" dogs you’ve described are probably picking up some kind of emotional energy from your dog that makes them uncomfortable.

suja’s fear aggressive man shy abused dog Khan has a very long history of fear aggression. THAT’S HOWE COME.  I can’t pretend to know the source of their comfort levels or of the energy they’re picking up from your dog, but I think it would be a mistake to equate what’s going on in your example with "normal pack behavior", since as far as I can tell none of these dogs have  formed a pack with your dog.

And NORMAL PACKS don’t JERK and CHOKE their pack members on pronged spiked pinch choke collars. And onc [sic] you understand the principles of how dogs *really* learn you begin to see "dominant" behavior for what it really is — emotional frustration.

EXXXACTLY. But HOWER MENTAL CASES are likeWIZE emotionally FRUSTRATED. THAT’S HOWE COME they HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER dogs and LIE abHOWET it. suja: What does learning have to do with "dominant" behavior?

ALL AGGRESSION IS LEARNED.  Specifically,

INDEEDY. I am asking about what it means in dog-dog interactions. Humans form social hierarchies and when we interact with our dogs we do so in ways that reflect our mindset about how *we* learned to adjust our behaviors to live in the human world.

HOWER DOG LOVERS operate HOWETA FEAR and GREED, the same same as they TEACH their dogs.   Even though dogs are domesticated they still retain many of the instincts, impulses, and reflexes left over from when they lived in the wild.

A dog is a dog. Many of those instincts, etc., are geared for living in a natural environment, not in a human household.  If we don’t honor, understand, and respect their natural way of doing things in how we raise them, we unintentionally create emotional tension, even though the dog may seem to be "well- behaved".

INDEEDY. That’s the PREDICTABLE RESULT of forced CON-TROLL and REPRESSION of INSTINCTIVE NORMAL NATURAL REFLEXIVE INNATE BEHAVIORS. That tension will carry over to their interactions  with other dogs.

All behaviors are the same same same, they’re just wearin different clothes. Look, even in the more rigid social structure of a wolf pack (and a great deal of what we "know" about wolves comes from observations made about their behavior in a sanctuary, where the stress level is much higher than it would be if they lived naturally, in the wild) emotional stress is both the result of not hunting and as a preparation for it.  When they hunt together they’re in a state of "flow", which is a form of consciousness and learning in humans that is just now being looked into and researched.

Right. That’s HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy Wizard teaches that in the preliminary EXXXERCISES in HIS FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com I don’t know if this is helpful,

HOWER DOG LOVERS don’t have the INTELLECT to HOWEtwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog even after you and The Amazing Puppy Wizard and all HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World who REPORT their 100% CONSISTENT NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS RIGHT HERE told them HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR FREE, to boot. HOWER DOG LOVERS call them LIARS, like HOWE they done you too, Lee.  but here’s part of an outline of topics covered in an upcoming seminar being given by Kevin Behan: 1.) Kevin’s background and how he always worked with the "one-out-of-a-hundred-problem" dog, which afforded him the most vivid window into a dog’s internal workings.

LikeWIZE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2.) Review of the current models of behavior, learning and training: How they don’t add up. Examples of everyday things that dogs do which contradict the mainstream theories of behavior and learning [association, repetition, mimicry, and trial and error]. 3.) What is a dog?  Why did dog evolve from wolf? 4.) Proposal of a new Model: behavior as an expression of emotion. 5.) Redefinition of behavior and learning: An  examination of the number one motive and reinforcement of all animal and canine behavior, resolution of Unresolved Emotion (inner stress). What Pavlov really discovered. Most people don’t see their dogs as being  stressed unless the dog is showing severe  behavioral problems.  I see almost *all* behavior as a manifestation of a dog’s resolution of some kind of inner emotional tension.

PRECISELY. THAT’S HOWE COME HOWER DOG LOVERS CALL YOU and Kevin and The Amazing Puppy Wizard and all HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students LIARS. Does it all make SENSE, NHOWE? "The leash is on her as we speak, however, I must literally DRAG her around w/ stiffened legs." be useful for some..) HOWEDY Mental Cases,

I did react to the way I was raised.

INDEEDY.  You’ve become MENTAL CASES. The fruit don’t fall far from the fruitcake.                      ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE                          CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.         Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."              We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions                     And GET BACK What We TAUGHT. You’re abusers. You choke shock and intimidate your dogs just like HOWE you abuse and teach your kids.                   A Dog Is A Dog As A Kat Is A Kat                            As A Birdie Is A Birdie                             As A Child Is A Child                  As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES. And now I think my lack of cuddling, and loving to my daughter

This ain’t abHOWET HEELIN, this is abHOWET DEFENDING your RIGHT to HURT and INTIMIDATE. S-HOWENDS like gwen honey got a bad case of the "POOR MEEE’S" again. has caused her to overindulge in that since with grandson.

Looks like gwen honey’s dyslexia caused her to jusxtapose a comma. Just wanna be accurate.       "The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior                                  Never Change,          Or They’d Not Be Scientific And Would Not Obtain              Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results                                 For All Handler’s                                   And All Dogs,                              NEARLY INSTANTLY,   As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE            WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual,"                          The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ )   I talked to her last night. She can’t even leave the room without him having a fit.

Separation anxiHOWESNESS is CAUSED by the CON-TROLLER not BEIN IN CON-TROLL, not being alone. The fearful dog child or adult has NO SELF CONFIDENCE, on accHOWENT of they’re been MANAGED and never LEARNED SELF CON-TROLL.  He has to be with her 24/7 by the sound of it.

That’s very endearing, but the FACT is, it’s CAUSED BY MISHANDLING and OVER CON-TROLL, not fear of being alone.  He won’t let her out of his sight.

Separation anxiHOWESNESS can be CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY 100% of the … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY Lee,

.. You see them as normal, I don’t.

LikeWIZE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Humans form social hierarchies and when we interact with our dogs we do so in ways that reflect our mindset about how *we* learned to adjust our behaviors to live in the human world. Even though dogs are domesticated they still retain many of the instincts, impulses, and reflexes left over from when they lived in the wild. Many of those instincts, etc., are geared for living in a natural environment, not in a human household. If  we don’t honor, understand, and respect their natural way of doing things in how we raise them, we unintentionally create emotional tension, even though the dog may seem to be "well-behaved". That tension will carry over to their interactions with other dogs. Look, even in the more rigid social structure of a wolf pack (and a great deal of what we "know" about wolves comes from observations made about their behavior in a sanctuary, where the stress level is much higher than it would be if they lived naturally, in the wild) emotional stress is both the result of not hunting and as a preparation for it.  When they hunt together they’re in a state of "flow", which is a form of consciousness and learning in humans that is just now being looked into and researched. I don’t know if this is helpful, but here’s part of an outline of topics covered in an upcoming seminar being given by Kevin Behan: 1.) Kevin’s background and how he always worked with the "one-out-of-a-hundred-problem" dog, which afforded him the most vivid window into a dog’s internal workings. 2.) Review of the current models of behavior, learning and training: How they don’t add up. Examples of everyday things that dogs do which contradict the mainstream theories of behavior and learning [association, repetition, mimicry, and trial and error]. 3.) What is a dog?  Why did dog evolve from wolf? 4.) Proposal of a new Model: behavior as an expression of emotion. 5.) Redefinition of behavior and learning: An examination of the number one motive and reinforcement of all animal and canine behavior, resolution of Unresolved Emotion (inner stress). What Pavlov really discovered. Most people don’t see their dogs as being stressed unless the dog is showing severe behavioral problems. I see almost *all* behavior as a manifestation of a dog’s resolution of some kind of inner emotional tension.

That’s IT in a nutshell. INTRO TO WITS’ END DOG TRAINING MANUAL  George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D. F.R.S.H. Several years ago one of my old students telephoned to me and asked me what I knew about Doggie Do Right, a device to cause your neighbor’s dog to stop barking. I had not heard of the device, nor its inventor, Jerry Howe, but I telephoned, read his website, and told my graduate that I thought the device was worth a trial – indeed I shut up the dogs in my neighborhood by turning on Jerry’s supersonic device. After all we all know that dogs respond to whistles humans cannot hear, so why not respond to "attaboy" sounds which humans cannot hear. My student lived far from my Florida homestead, so he tried it on the three incredibly savage, hyperactive and noisy dogs who lived behind a tall fence just 3 feet back of his bedroom. Hot rats! The device worked, Andy got his sleep and I didn’t think much of the matter again. A few months ago I had new neighbors on each side of my house, four of them, all with noisy unshuttupable dogs. Argh! So I foned Andrew in Virgina, received the intelligence that his neighbors dogs were still quiet, and then I foned Jerry Howe, the inventor of Doggie Do Right, who came to visit me. Merlin walked into my office. Jerry is a slender fellow with a belly button lenghth grey beard tapering down his chest. I liked him immediately, and I applied his instrument to the neighborhood again which again became silent. It occured to me that if this ultrasonic field worked with dogs that we ought at least to ask the question, what happens to humans in range of the device??? I asked Jerry to give me a list of customers and began inquiring among them. One thing became immediately evident. The Doggie Do Right not only shuts up your neighbors’ dogs, it calms and modifies your husband’s behavior. Holey Moley, Captain Marvel, this device has major potential. In the meantime Jerry gave me a copy of his Wits End Dog Training Manual. I was delighted. He also introduced me to the world of professional dog trainers some of whom even have Ph.D.s in psychology. This was not such a delight as it appeared that none of these luminaries had actually read Skinner, Lazarus or other fountains of wisdom in psychology. Indeed, it seemed as though they knew very little about the laws of behavior at all! Punishment and confrontation seemed to be their major stock in trade. Well, if you go to my website, www.drbiofeedback.com you can read of the career of Sam Corson, I.P. Pavlov’s last student. Sam demonstrated that rehabilitation of hyperactive dogs can easily and readily be done using TLC, tender loving care is at the root of the scientific management of doggies. Pavlov told us so 100 years ago. So what are these degreed morons doing punishing dogs, and shouting "NO" into their doggie faces? If you pick up B.F.Skinner’s last book, CUMULATIVE RECORD, included in it is an essay by Keller Breland and Maryann Breland entitled THE MISBEHAVIOR OF ORGANISMS. Skinner deliberately included his students’ chapter to emphasize that you cannot manage the behavior of animals unless you take into consideration 1. the animal’s evolutionary niche (who is the animal?); 2. the animal’s personal history (who is the animal?) and 3, the instinctive repetoire of the animal (who is the animal?) and 4. the personality of the animal (who is the animal?). The Brelands moved far from the white rat. "Thirty-eight species, totaling over 6,000 individual animals, have been conditioned, and we have dared to tackle such unlikely subjects as reindeer, cockatoos, raccoons, porpoises, and whales. " Jerry Howe spends most of his times with dogs, but he has learned Pavlov’s lesson well. Dogs are individuals, they are individual DOGS, and they respond most directly and immediately to love and tender loving care. Read with pleasure, and then go love your dog. George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. Who’s Who Honoree since 1983 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– To: Andrew Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:08 AM Andrew, Jerry Howe is here as I type and we have decided to create a human mellowing branch and to sell the marvel mystery device.   Here is my first draft. What do you think? George Friends and colleagues: A couple of years ago I became interested in Doggy Do Right (DDR) a sonic device which inhibits barking in your neighbors’ yappy dogs.  I tested the instrument and became pleased at the silence in our neighborhood. I perused the manual for the DDR which has significant guidance for loving your own dog so that the wee beast no longer leaps up on you, howls, whines, tears up your shoes, escapes, digs holes, spins around, throws up in the car, eats paper, self-mutilates, fears thunder, suffers when you go to the store and don’t take him, and all the other ills and behavior problems to which the domesticated dog is prone. Jerry Howe, the inventor of the DDR, understands doggy behavior so well he might well have been a student of Sam Corson (Pavlov’s last student who fixed hyperactive dogs, and started our profession, as well as the profession of "Pet Facilitated Therapy"). It occured to me that we might put ourselves out of work.  If a sonic device can mellow hyperactive dogs, why wouldn’t it do so for hyperactive kids and neurotic adults? So, I am inviting a few friends and colleagues to join me in forming a company, which will lease BABY BE GOOD; HAPPY BOY; SWEET LITTLE GIRL; MAMA BE MELLOW; PAPA BE STRONG – these are just first pass names for the device in its several adjustments.  Jerry Howe, genius inventor says you have to refine the adjustment for . More than a thousand owners agree that DOGGY DO RIGHT happifies the  dogs next door so they don’t bark.  DOGGY DO RIGHT also happifies the dog in your home so that she doesn’t do all the unwanted, unpleasant things that dogs often do. AND!!!  DOGGY DO RIGHT happifies the humans in your house so that they are more mellow, happy, quiet and not so dratted obsessive and angry. Problem here.  Is this therapy?  If so the poor little silently singing device needs $4,000,000 to do an FDA study. THANK GOD!  IT ISN’T THERAPY! It is the same effect that Baroque music has on emotion, learning, behavior and memory.  Baroque music mellows and enhances and so does DOGGY DO RIGHT. Of course, these wonderful results have to be proved, by acceptable means. Jerry, don’t think I sent this to you.  A remarkable success for DDR – I keep wanting to call it, Doggie Be Good, DBG. Maybe we ought to try it as an alternate name!  Set up your own competition. Fondly, George —– Original Message —– To: George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D. Cc: I have to agree with George. I found out about this and asked George to look into it. Got good results, so I bought one. I have 6 LOUD dogs outside my back window, chained up all the time, less than 50 feet behind the house. They used to keep me up nights until I bought the DDR machine.  Now, quiet. Yes, they bark when someone gets too close at odd hours, but then they stop. Used to be they would bark for hours. (Their owner must wonder what happened, I called the cops

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Response:

HOWEDY leah, EXXXPLAIN to Lee HOWE COME that RECENT GRADUATE STUDENT Rottie you been trainin since 10 weeks MURDERED a little DEAD DOG in that park when his PRAY DRIVE suddenly KICKED IN?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not necessarily.  In some cases *always* reinforcing a behavior, every single time, produces a stronger likelihood of reliability *and* intensity, whereas using a variable reinforcement schedule in such cases actually *reduces* the relibility and intensity of the behavior. I have one word for you.  Gambling. Canine Action Dog Trainer http://www.canineaction.com My Kids, My Students, My Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html

Response:

HOWEDY sinofabitch,

Actually, you should *always* let the dog win,  Why?

You mean HOWE COME. That would take most of the fun out if it  for all three of my dogs-they don’t want to "win" the object, they want to TUG.

Yeah. That makes a lotta sense. And a dog who always wins will also be more likely to bring the object back to you for another game,

Of curse.   You shouldn’t be playing tug with your dog,   IMO, unless the dog has been TAUGHT to   give the object back to hand on command,

That’s a EXXXCELLENT way to TEACH it, sinofabitch. Here’s a 100% NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Student doin the whole nine yards in WON fell swoop: Hi, Jerry. I’m not sure that I’m a 100% convert, or that I agree with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this manual … BUT … we had "come" down pat in a few reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber ball at my feet on command. He’s still not perfect (just a pup, after all, and he’s stubborn enough to want to push and test me a little bit more). For what it’s worth, I can see (as no doubt you have) how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even if that was the only method that would work, I’d live with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that. (Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively, tho’). Best, ben as well as to drop it and take it on command.

The EZiest way to teach a dog to TAKE sumpthin is to try to KEEP IT FROM HIM. THAT’S HOWE COME your dogs eat garbage and swallow STUFF they steal.   If you haven’t taught those things as an integral part of tug games, and/or if you can’t be sure that  the dog will bring the object back to you, you’ve done it wrong as far as I’m concerned.

Yeah. But you’re a lying dog abusing punk thug coward active long term incurable mental case. And no tugging allowed on the leash, clothes, or body parts.

Right. Leashes ain’t intended to be chewed or stepped on.   As far as the leash is concerned, I disagree.

Yeah, but you’re a MENTAL CASE. REMEMBER?  If you’ve taught tug correctly from the beginning- which is as a game that includes/incorporates "Take it", "Leave it", "Pick it up", "Drop", and "Give" – there’s no reason not to use the leash in certain circumstances.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s leash costs over thirty dollars and is INTENDED to last at least ten years of professional use, until the swivel is worn so thin there ain’t no justification to keep it. Then it can be used by a non professonal handler for many years to come.   For example, MANY agility competitors routinely use braided slip leads to go to and from the ring, and allow the dogs to tug on them before and after runs.

The dogs attack their leads on accHOWENT of you choke them.  I do that both with my Jack Russell and with my lurcher.

You choke and shock every dog.  For another example,

You also attack and throw them to the grHOWEND and grHOWEL into their throat and and bite them on their ear to teach them HOWE to walk NICE on your pronged spiked pinch choke collar on their FIRST LESSON with you. REMEMBER? Of curse, you’ll DENY your own written words again, as you always dog. you miserable lyin dog abusing mental case. I have specifically and deliberately TAUGHT my Jack Russell to grab her leash – any leash, not just the agility going-to-the-ring one –

Yeah. On accHOWENT of you can’t stop her from doin it on accHOWENT of your dog DOES it on accHOWENT of you CHOKE her. and tug/shake it as a displacement activity

She’s doin it in SELF DEFENSE, you mental case. when she feels threatened or challenged by another dog,

Like when she knows you’ll HURT her for fighting. THAT’S HOWE COME she flashes back on your lead, sinofabitch.  sees a buddy at the park, wants to go after prey, or is excited and/or impatient to participate in an activity (running agility, going to ground, and so forth).

IOW, ANY TIME YOU GOTTA CHOKE HER.   It’s FAR preferable to have her tugging   and focused on the leash –

No it ain’t. That’s a pretty difficult PROBLEM, especially if it’s a attack dog you’re workin with. and therefore on me –

THAT’S INSANE. The dog is totally taken up with the leash, you’re the furthest thing from her mind.  than jumping, lunging, and boinkybarking.

IOW, you’ve allHOWED WON HOWETA CON-TROLL behavior to replace a other, on accHOWENT of you can’t CON-TROLL your dog withHOWET CHOKIN or SHOCKING HIM: Sarah F.

He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing.  He didn’t even blink an eye. Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/

I can’t imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can’t remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Jerking choking and shockin and lockin dogs in boxes and ignoring their cries makes their dogs go "EWWWW" but they don’t NOTICE EXXXCEPT to spray BINACA in their eyes and jerk and choke them on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shock and spray MOORE aversives in their faces. Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog’s been sprayed in the face and the dog won’t know HOWE COME IT was MACED?  My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.

They’re DUMB ANIMALS these MENTAL CASES HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER. sinofabitch writes: What I have said- repeatedly – is that he took posts from two different people, took pieces of them out of context, cobbled them together, then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly." and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is exactly what he did. The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context, and Jerry’s faked "quote" is downright meaningless. Here’s Jerry’s version   "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My    Right Arm  Over The Lab’s Shoulder,    Grabbed Her Opposite  Foot With My    Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,    Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into    Her Throat  And Said "GRRRR!" And    Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch. Here’s yours;   "I dropped the leash, threw my   right arm over the Lab’s shoulder,   grabbed her opposite foot with my   left hand, rolled her on her side,   leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and   nipped her ear.   –Sara Sionnach

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. "When you get bagged for lying you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And Sally responded: Who said that?  I would never do or recommend that, and neither would most of the regulars on here. Sally Hennessey I’ve posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so. Take it out of context and you’d think I was flinging puppies across the room! here’s what I said (keep in mind that we’re talking about a 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):  A small scruff shake is appropriate if he’s very persistant.

  Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make   it  clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily   misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff   of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?   I think I’d phrase it something like "if the puppy is very   persistant, it  can be appropriate to take hold of the   loose skin at the back of the neck and give a slight   shake to the *skin*".   Janet’s not talking about actually shaking   the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is   abusive." THAT’S INSANE. AIN’T IT. So’s this: Here’s professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research at UofWI, marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation," dermer: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy,  "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p. BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it.         The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{}TPW ; ~  }   P.S.  Contacting Dr. P: Please note that due to the large number of requests I receive, I can no longer give free, personal advice on problems related to dog training and behavior. In order for me to give such advice we would have to "talk" about the problem at length. That is, I would need detailed … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY tommy, [] This will do a number of beneficial things for overall behavior, and can even be used with some dogs to cure aggression!

INDEEDY, AS STATED in your FREE copy of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com Or…with some dogs,

A dog is a dog, tommy. REMEMBER?  e.g., very dominant dogs,

You mean, OPPOSITIONAL dogs, tommy? it *may* make them even more dominant

That’s GOOD, tommy. ALL aggression is FEAR. Teachin the dog to be DOMINANT would BUILD CONFIDENCE and make the FEARFUL dog FEARLESS and therefore, SAFE, on accHOWENT ALL aggression is FEAR, tommy. THAT’S HOWE COME real dog trainers DON’T HURT INTIMIATED BRIBE and WITHOLD attention and affection and they NEVER give "REWARDS" on accHOWENT of the REWARD is IN THE WORK, the satisfaction of PACK DRIVE, tommy. and actually add to your problems.

ONLY if you HURT and INTIDATE the dog, tommy. ALL aggression is FEAR. REMEMBER, tommy? So, if you have a very dominant dog,

You mean a FEARFUL OPPOSITIONAL dog, tommy. Dominant dogs do not FEAR THINGS, as your lying abusing punk thug coward mental case pal culprit aka kelly metta just detailed in her post on her "dominant" fear aggressive dogs and HOWE their roles are changin as the formerly hyper fear aggressive Lola learned to DEFEND HERSELF and has NHOWE cowered Manu and he’s taen the role of "protector" aka the MOORE FEARFUL member of the pack, tommy.  and you don’t want to take *any* chances,

RIGHT. THAT’S HOWE COME real trainers don’t JERK and CHOKE dogs on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shock and spray avesives in their faces. REMEMBER, tommy? IMO,

Your opinion is that of a anyonymHOWES vulgar lying dog abusing punk thug coward homophobe mysoginist Sadist who beats dogs to HOWEsbreak them, according to your own posted words. REMEMBER, tommy? But of curse, THAT was only to SAVE ITS LIFE on accHOWENT of you don’t have the INTELLECT to HOWEtwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog even after  Lee, his friends Canis55 and Brad Parker Marilyn Robert Crim, Misty, Disciple Paulie and The Amazing Puppy Wizard and all HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World tol you HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR FREE, to boot. You call them LIARS. Like HOWE you done Lee. REMEMBER, tommy? you should stay away from tug.

Unless you’re tuggin on your pronged spiked pinch choke collar. Oh, EXXXCUSE The Amazing Puppy Wizard. You PREFER the slip choke collar on accHOWENT of it won’t fall apart when you suddenly jerk and release it to teach your dogs to TRUST you so you don’t gotta MURDER them. REMEMBER, tommy? Especially if you’re a dog novice.

Yeah. None of the METHODS we’re discussin will stand alone, tommy. I’ll also add my usual caveat to *retriever* people

Retriever people like your pal kwbrown who JUST MURDERED her DEAD DOG Teena, thanks to your advice, tommy? Of curse, you didn’t do it all alone, you had heelp from Master Of Deception blankman, sindy SADIST MOOREON and lying frosty dahl, along with the aid of her in person real life shock collar trainer who was the last dog abusing mental case Teena bit on accHOWENT of she MURDERED her. who have designs on *competing* one day

Like kwbrown. in hunt tests or field trials, or who intend to hunt with their dogs — avoid playing tug like you would avoid someone with a dozen sticks of dynamite strapped to his waist.

That’s INSANE, tommy. Playing teaches dogs to work together as a pack, REMEMBER, tommy? There’s NO relationship between biting on attack sleeve or tug, with biting on a object the dog is asked to pick up. DOGS AIN’T STUPID, tommy. REMEMBER? They HOWEtwit you constantly. Handsome Jack Morrison

Or you wouldn’t NEED to HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER THEM. Would you, tommy. Here ya go, tommy. Here’s a other dog your CC and OC trainin MURDERED: HOWEDY laura,

diana is a dog abuser a liar and a mental case. Like yourself. | if other areas of his obedience are going well, | use that to help you break this habit – if he’s | busy performing a command for you, he won’t | be busy barking for you.

Yeah. That’ll provoke the dog to do it MOORE cause it’ll REWARD his attention gettin devices. | I’ve tried this too, but have no success.

That’s cause lee is a MOOREON. |  He performs the command but continues to bark.

SEE??? Told ya so! Since he’s a smart and obedient dog,

Yeah. Smart, obedient, Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre,"  perhaps you could give him a command

Like the DIE command, laura? that precludes barking?

Oh? You must mean the "NO BARK!" command. Won’t work on this Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre, dog. Perhaps teach him to sit and hold an object for you – dumbbell, glove, rolled newspaper, ball –

Yeah. That’ll make him very happy. He WANTS attention, and that’d be payin him off. you could simply carry an item like this in your pocket when you go out.

RIGHT. That COULD work… till WON fine day when IT don’t have sumpthin to put in ITS MHOWETH and then he’ll GO NUTS.  And then Sit! Hold! would produce the desired behaviour?

Yeah. Like it did for your DEAD DOG Chewie. Just a thought…

Yeah. That’s HOWE COME you MUREDERED your own DEAD DOG Chewie. Laura and Angel in Oslo

laura MURDERED her heart dog Chewie just like HOWE your pal tara o. did her DEAD DOG Summer as have many of HOWER DOG LOVERS here abHOWETS. Here’s HOWE COME laura KILLED her dog Chewie: Well, we’re doing as you say Dogman, and I’ll keep you all posted. Laura in Oslo

You’re quite the dog enthusiast, eh laura? The listener,

You didn’t WANT to listen to The Puppy Wizard when HE told you you couldn’t PUNISH and INTIMIDATE your dog or you’d make IT aggressive. the observer.

NHOWE you got a DEAD DOG HOWETA it.  We do work were you sometimes have to observe people

Like laura, MURDERING her dog… and take notes.

INDEEDY! B. has amazing powers of observation and concentration.

RIGHT… Laura and Angel in Oslo

"Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre," And DEAD. HOWEDY People, Here’s HOWE COME laura arlov KILLED her "Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful.  Full Of "Joie de Vivre," And DEAD DOG Chewie: While I was listening to the Miles Davis CD, "Kind Of Blue," and drinking a little Booker’s, on 24 Apr 1999 Was that a SERIOUS ENOUGH bite for you dogman, or was it insignificant? Why would you suggest getting a book or obediance, is there no bite SERIOUS enough for you?

Yes, there are, but this one was *caused* by the actions of a very, very STUPID human being, someone much like yourself. And it only hapopened ONCE. And there are many, many dogs out there today living perfectly normal and honorable lives who, upon having done to them what was done to this dog ("Chewie"), would also bite. I mean, how stupid can one person get? Don’t answer that yet, Broke, you’re setting a new record almost everyday. Here’s what the owner’s husband did (and precisely what caused the bite), just in case you forgot: (My husband was holding Chewie’s head and looking him in the eye and yelling at him, and Chewie growled louder and louder and louder and then bit my husband.)

I wonder just how many dogs out there wouldn’t at least be tempted to bite some stupid idiot for doing that to him? I include below the entire post for viewers reading pleasure, and so they can take everything I said in its proper *context.* PS:  I’d be willing to wager a large amount of money that this particular dog will never bite this guy again, provided: 1.)  The family gives this dog some OBEDIENCE training. 2.)  The guy refrains from doing really STUPID things to the dog. 3.)  The guy PARTICIPATES in the training. 4.)  They have a professional ASSESS the dog. Putting this dog down simply for doing the above is UNCONSCIONABLE. This dog needs to be assessed, in person, by a knowledgeable trainer/behaviorist before any action is even considered. Now yesterday morning, Chewie lost his temper with my husband and bit him, hard. (Deep puncture, lots of blood, docot visit, tetanus shot, antibiotics, the whole shooting match) Dogman’s words of wisdom: You need to get a book on recognizing animal behavior ***(I have some listed on my web site)***, and you need to get your husband (and children, if they’re old enough) involved in the OBEDIENCE training of this dog. WRONG. You need to cull. Do not give that dog a second chance to bite someone and draw blood another time, like your childs face… Broke Egoman and his dangerous advice should be ignored.

Doofuses are always welcome to ignore my advice, after all, that’s why they remain doofuses, eh? Beginning of the actual post, before Broke selectively snipped: Upon my return to the Cuckoo’s Nest, [...] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We have an 18 month old male Airedale Terrier, Chewbacca (Chewie).

… read more »

Response:

HOWEDY Lee,

.. Child:there was a study done about tugging and it was found that dogs like to play more often if you let them win on occasion.  Sound like Rozzy is no exception!

Right. A dog is a dog. Actually, you should *always* let the dog win, and praise her very enthusiastically for winning.

Right. Just like HOWE it’s done in attack trainin. This will do a number of beneficial things for overall behavior,

Right. It’ll build confidence and develop the prey / pack drive flow stuff you teach. and can even be used with some dogs to cure aggression!

There’s a fine line between play and aggression. The line is broadend when there’s abundant TRUST. Dogs instinctively SHARE. Bribing dogs and witholding bribes and "rewards" teaches greed and mistrust. And a dog who always wins will also be more likely to bring the object back to you for another game, not because she doesn’t like to win but because she wants to win again.

Perhaps THAT’S HOWE COME taking forbidden STUFF from teh dog teaches them to TAKE forbidden STUFF. Not lettin them take it back TEACHES  them to SWALLOW IT before you can STEAL their B-HOWENTY.  (And again and again.)

RIGHT. ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY MISHANLDING as taught by the EXXXPERTS we’ve IDENTIFIED EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED as bein INCOMPETENT. Which brings up another rule:

       "The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior                                       Never Change,            Or They’d Not Be Scientific And Could Not Obtain                 Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results                            For All Handler’s And All Dogs,                                   NEARLY INSTANTLY,        As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard’s       FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual,"                              The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ )   it’s okay to let the dog initiate tug once in a while,

The Amazing Puppy Wizard discourages that by using clever subterfuge and shortly thereafter offers the opportunity to play or whatever, thereby makin the dog think you’re the smartest person in the Whole Wild World. if you’re in the mood to play,

The subterfuge is to acknowledge the dog’s desire to initiate the activity and pretending to have other obligations. The dog learns self control and fogets abHOWET it till the next time. A few minutes later when YOU ask the dog if he wants to do whatever, he thinks you’re a freakin genius. but it’s important for you to always be in charge of when the game ends.

There’s the rub. When we try to break a dog from playing or aggression, we can’t just tell him to STOP and let the aggressor run HOWET on him or remove the tug toy or we’ll increase is level of anxiHOWESNESS. HOWEver, we DO do THAT in protection trainin to INCREASE aggression. IOW, the drive is NOT satisfied by gettin a bite. That makes the dog MOORE furiHOWES the next time. HOWEver, we’re always dealin with a DHOWEBLE edged sword. If we rely on that tactic to INCREASE anxiHOWESNESS and DON’T satisfy his prey drive by allHOWEING him the capture and bite, we’ll inadvertently BREAK DHOWEN the prey drive. And no tugging allowed on the leash, clothes, or body parts.

Right. Particularly with a dog you’re trainin for attack work, on accHOWENT of you don’t want him to get anxiHOWES abHOWET the aggitator and accidently grab your arm instead of his target. Ordinarily The Amazing Puppy Wizard would frHOWEN on someWON trying what Disciple Paulie is EXXXPERIMENTING with, on accHOWENT of the EXXXERCISE could leave the dog highly aggitated and unsafe. Fortunately, Disciple Paulie is an EXXXPERT dog handler, WON of the BEST of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students. He too has been called a LIAR by HOWER pal tommy sorenson, so don’t feel as THOWE he’s pickin on you, he attacks and refuses to talk business with any competent trainers who’ve ever posted here abHOWETS. Of curse, HOWER EXXXPERTS don’t think it’s ETHICKAL to talk abHOWET attack trainin on thse forums, despite that we’ve got WON of the very best in the business, HOWER on lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn who has evaluated the dogs in the Knoller / Whipple case, and of curse, FRAUDreck, HOWER shock collar salesman who’s sleeve happy Pit Bull (of curse PB’S don’t attack humans) has WON the NAPD CHUMPionship a couple times runnin, but STILL NEEDS to be SHOCKED. That’s all for NHOWE. The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{) ; ~  )  

Response:

HOWEDY sinofabitch,

what you have discovered is that winning matters to *some* dogs, and one of those is Roz.

Right. But the EXXXPERIMENT is just beginin.   Yep. If he owned Rocsi, he’d have come to a completely different conclusion.

That so?  Let her "win", and more often than not, she  immediately brings the object back to hand  so the game can go on.

RIGHT. So she can WIN again.   This is particularly funny when the object of tug is the leash –

No, that’s a different matter. especially because it confounds 90% of observers,

No, it only CONfHOWENDS you and 10% of observers. The 90% got it RIGHT and you and them other losers got it DEAD WRONG.  who draw an entirely wrong conclusion as to what’s going on when they see her apparently "fighting" her leash.

Your dog grabs her leash to PREVENT YOU FROM HURTING HER someMOORE, sinofabitch.   They assume that she’s trying to get away from me,

On accHOWENT of you choke and shock her. or protesting the leash…

Like that new under the table dog walking client you attacked and threw to the grHOWEND and grHOWELED into ITS throat and bit on ITS ear after jerking and choking IT for a half HOWER on your pronged spiked pinch choke collar didn’t make IT want to enjoy your walk in the park. however, if I let go, or Rocsi inadvertently pulls it out of my hand, she stops dead.

RIGHT. On accHOWENT of there’s noMOORE CHOKING. It’s called positive THUGmotaxis, sinofabitch. THAT’S HOWE COME you can’t train a dog not to pull, withHOWET SHOCKING and JERKING and CHOKING them on your pronged spiked pinch choke collar. REMEMBER? If I then hold out my hand, she’ll pick up the end of the leash in her mouth, trot over, and place it in my hand.

Right. She wants to play tug when you’re not CHOKING her.   I have to admit that I get a kick out of watching people’s faces when she does this. <G

Yeah. Your dog FEARS the leash, THAT’S HWOE COME she grabs and shakes it. That you haven’t been able to TRAIN her NOT to do that, speaks to your inability to handle and train ANY dog for any behavior. UNLESS of curse, you PREFER your dog to be destroying her leash. Here’s you HURTIN a dog and LYING abHOWET it: sinofabitch writes: What I have said- repeatedly – is that he took posts from two different people, took pieces of them out of context, cobbled them together, then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly." and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is exactly what he did. The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context, and Jerry’s faked "quote" is downright meaningless. Here’s Jerry’s version   "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My    Right Arm  Over The Lab’s Shoulder,    Grabbed Her Opposite  Foot With My    Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,    Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into    Her Throat  And Said "GRRRR!" And    Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch. Here’s yours;   "I dropped the leash, threw my   right arm over the Lab’s shoulder,   grabbed her opposite foot with my   left hand, rolled her on her side,   leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and   nipped her ear.   –Sara Sionnach

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. "When you get bagged for lying you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY.

He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing.  He didn’t even blink an eye. Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/

I can’t imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can’t remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Jerking choking and shockin and lockin dogs in boxes and ignoring their cries makes their dogs go "EWWWW" but they don’t NOTICE EXXXCEPT to spray BINACA in their eyes and jerk and choke them on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shock and spray MOORE aversives in their faces. Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog’s been sprayed in the face and the dog won’t know HOWE COME IT was MACED?  My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.

They’re DUMB ANIMALS these MENTAL CASES HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And Sally responded: Who said that?  I would never do or recommend that, and neither would most of the regulars on here. Sally Hennessey I’ve posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so. Take it out of context and you’d think I was flinging puppies across the room! here’s what I said (keep in mind that we’re talking about a 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):  A small scruff shake is appropriate if he’s very persistant.

  Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make   it  clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily   misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff   of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?   I think I’d phrase it something like "if the puppy is very   persistant, it  can be appropriate to take hold of the   loose skin at the back of the neck and give a slight   shake to the *skin*".   Janet’s not talking about actually shaking   the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is   abusive." THAT’S INSANE. AIN’T IT. So’s this: Here’s professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research at UofWI, marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation," dermer: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy,  "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p. BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it.         The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{}TPW ; ~  }   P.S.  Contacting Dr. P: Please note that due to the large number of requests I receive, I can no longer give free, personal advice on problems related to dog training and behavior. In order for me to give such advice we would have to "talk" about the problem at length. That is, I would need detailed information about the dog, it’s environment and routine, the problem, and the situation in which the problem occurs. Thus, this type of consultation takes time which I cannot afford to give away for free. If you wish such advice, please see the information I have provided about my K9 Behavioral Consulting practice. Another alternative to obtaining personal advice is to participate in e-mail, chat room, & newsgroup discussions. P.P.S. BWEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!                 YOU’RE FRAUDS, drs p. and dermer!               Either DEFEND your LIES, ABUSE And               Degrees or get the heel HOWETA THIS                                  BUSINESS.         "If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you                        and you will know each other.          If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,                 and what you do not know you will fear.                        What one fears, one destroys."                               Chief Dan George               "(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the               few regulars here who are either ill-               tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.),"                                   –Marshall while walking backwards

Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what it felt like to me when I got shocked by Hope’s collar. It felt like a bomb going off in my hand and forearm.

how effective are these electronic fences in keeping a dog on a property???? Some run through it. Others get shocked and become too scared to go out in the yard anymore. Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog, because the dog got caught right in the path of the shock and will now not go near his person, won’t go outside. Just hides under a desk in the house.

"I’d call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won’t touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller. "I know this is a hard subject to bring up … read more »

Response:

THAT’S HOWE COME Disciple Paulie is doin the EXXXPERIMENT. HOWEDY Disciple Paulie, S-HOWENDS like a interesting EXXXPERIMENT. Here’s HOWE The Amazing Puppy Wizard predicts the HOWEtcome will go:. Inasmuch as dogs learn on the basis of 4 repetitions, your dog is just abHOWET to learn what you’re up to, that the game has changed. She’ll figger this HOWET on the next session for SHORE, and then she’ll throw you the curve ball. Perhaps she’ll do somethin like drop off the tug and come arHOWEND and bite you on the arse and then grab the tug and make off with it. Or, she may refuse to play untill you forget she wasn’t playin and then she’ll grab he tug and make off with it when you ain’t prepared to defend it. See what happens, this ought to be good. Whatever the HOWEtcome, it should show some creative doggy thinkin and trickery. Yours, The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{) ; ~  )  

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used to believe dogs played tug for the joy of tugging and the outcome didn’t matter, well I’ve changed my opinion, recently after playing full on tug with Roz there is only one thing on her mind and thats to hold on longer than me. there was a study done about tugging and it was found that dogs like to play more often if you let them win on occasion.  Sound like Rozzy is no exception!

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip okay why not try searching for what dyslexia is? try this link. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=what+is+dyslexia&spell=1 is a quick google search, should cover most bases. i really think before useing words such as "cureable" you really should read up on the subject, to be frank in the words of the geeks RTFM. As a geek I fell that I have to point out that it would be STFW in this instance. Of course, if you don’t know what that meen you will just have to STFW

LOL yes indeed, i hadn’t attually heard that one or at least not rembered it i find abrevations hard to rember, though pardoxicly i use IRC which some tends to have quite a lot, of abervations. such is life i guess. Roger

Response:

[ If "bottom posting" is the official norm, then why, when I click on "Reply Group", does the panel open with a line-space at top of page, and cursor in top-left position? ]

    It’s easier to tell exactly what you’re replying to with bottom posting. A preference for bottom or top posting varies from group to group, although currently bottom posting is in vogue. I think it was the other way around in the past though.     I don’t know why you’re being lectured though. I know some of the people posting here have enough problems just putting the words down, and I don’t see any reason to try to impose certain rules to make it more difficult for them.   The quoted definition (below) is characterised by vagueness and generality.   "Dyslexia is BEST described as a COMBINATION of….etc" which adds little to meaning.   However, taking the word etymologically: "dys-" means the reverse of easy (ie hard); and "-lexia" ie. "phrase, word" – from "speak".

    Of course, like many words, the whole is more than the sum of all parts.   I assume we mean more the written, than spoken, word.  Do dyslexics have real trouble with speech, or mostly with reading and writing?

    No. There is no evidence that dyslexia effects speech. If they don’t jumble words in speech, then why so when reading a page of text – unless never taught to go from top left to bottom right, or, if taught it, are incapable of following such rule?

    Because their brains process that information differently than non-dyslexic brains do.   I’d allege that a "consistent" dyslexic would have to have difficulties in both areas – if not, why not?

    Because that isn’t how the brain works. Going back to the historical information on word blindness I gave you, in one instance there was a patient who was unable to read after experiencing a head trauma. But this same person was still able to write.   Does a dyslexic have a truly malfunctioning brain, or merely a lazy one?

    Since I’m able to read Shakespeare’s first folio in its original raw form with non-standard spellings and letter substitutions, and I’m able to read originals by Milton and Chaucer just as well, and understand just about all of it, I’d say we’d have to go with malfunctioning. I don’t think that there’s any greater feat I could accomplish in the realm of reading English.

Response:

To respond to comments below – 1) Here we are starting to analyse symptoms into some kind of distinct factors, each of which might have different causes. 2) Even such a seemingly "obvious" factor in writing (or reading) from left to right (c-a-t spells "cat") may not be at all obvious – unless you are actually taught it! 3) Also, when I was at school, we did "transcription", ie copying letters, with B,b and P,p grouped, to avoid confusion which may arise with these similar lower-case script characters – to the non-discriminating eye. 4) All language consists of verbal constructs which have three aspects – concept, text, and sound – and it is important that the three be emphasised and taught if a full understanding of any word, or letter, is to be grasped. 5) I’d claim that, unless a person has an actual brain or motor physical disorder, their alleged symptom is thus psychological and should be curable. 6) There are all sorts of frauds perpetrated on the public, consciously or unconsciously, and a cynic might suspect that "dyslexia" is one of them. Bad teaching methods can be fertile ground for "remedial teaching, psychologists, thesis experts, and even disadvantaged students" all of whom can profit by it. 7) Does dyslexia occur in foreign nations, or is it mainly or only a mental disorder of English-speaking countries? It is claimed that some English-speaking people, who are otherwise dyslexic, can better learn a foreign language.  Why is this so?  Is a different teaching method the reason?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright. I may be confusing dyslexia with illiteracy, but a definition would help at this stage: "Dyslexia is….." ?     It’s a learning disability that effects a person’s ability to read (dyslexic symptoms), ability to write (dysgraphic symptoms), sense of left and right, ability to work with ordered lists (this might be disputed), short term memory (definitely disputed), and in a some instances difficulties with simple mathematics (discalcu symptoms). The actual symptoms and their severity differ from person to person.     It’s important to note that the actual problems are caused by the brain’s inability to properly process information. For instance, words can get jumbled on the page. When a dyslexic reads, the letters of a word can appear in a different order to them than what it on the page. You can see how this can create problems with reading.

Response:

Alright. I may be confusing dyslexia with illiteracy, but a definition would help at this stage: "Dyslexia is….." ?

    It’s a learning disability that effects a person’s ability to read (dyslexic symptoms), ability to write (dysgraphic symptoms), sense of left and right, ability to work with ordered lists (this might be disputed), short term memory (definitely disputed), and in a some instances difficulties with simple mathematics (discalcu symptoms). The actual symptoms and their severity differ from person to person.     It’s important to note that the actual problems are caused by the brain’s inability to properly process information. For instance, words can get jumbled on the page. When a dyslexic reads, the letters of a word can appear in a different order to them than what it on the page. You can see how this can create problems with reading.

Response:

OK. Look at it from the opposite angle – what are the symptoms of dyslexia, graded according to severity: (1) inability to read, at all; (2) difficulty with reading, but can read somewhat; (3) some difficulty with letters, or words, in some cases. Once these are detailed, then tackling the cause(s) gets more specific and possibly curable.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If Dyslexia is "a severe problem with learning how to read", then this could be a result of – yes that is close to the latic definision ( word blindness) and the sterotype yes, but dyslexica is more than that, in that the symtoms of dyslexica incudes more than reading, infact you can be dyslexic even if your reading comprehenchion is fine… (1) The method of teaching; (2) The teacher; (3) The student: (a) psychological, or (b) physiological. It seems necessary to analyse each of these possibilities and clearly distinguish between them. If most children in a school have no trouble learning how to read, then it would seem that neither the teaching method, nor the teachers, nor the children, is at fault.  But if there is a residual number of children who have great difficulty, then some psychological or physical/congenital abnormality would appear to be present.  Only in such cases would the label "dyslexic" seem warranted. What is the cause(s), and how can it be remedied? A study into the background of each such child would help in finding possible common factors, including socio-economic, family structure and habits, hereditary. applying satstics to individual classes in a primary school is way too small a number for satstics to be useful, as a tool, for better or for worse there are tests for dyslexica which hopefully pick up the dyslexic child, though of course a child has to noticed, not nessarly a easy task given that children often devop at very differnat speeds. remedied well the dyslexic needs a training in their weaknesses so that they can make up some of the short fall, but no matter how much training they are still dyslexic and thus have problems in areas. ie a cure there isn’t but it can be combated. Roger

Response:

Perhaps the rise of literacy is to blame, for in ancient Egypt twas only the scribes could read, old Rameses hadn’t a clue what them heiroglyphs extolling his virtues meant, they could have been calling him a fat bald A* hole for all he knew. Different brains have been around as long as there have been humans, but dyslexia only came into being when its time had come. Larry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If Dyslexia is "a severe problem with learning how to read", then this could be a result of – (1) The method of teaching; (2) The teacher; (3) The student: (a) psychological, or (b) physiological. It seems necessary to analyse each of these possibilities and clearly distinguish between them. If most children in a school have no trouble learning how to read, then it would seem that neither the teaching method, nor the teachers, nor the children, is at fault.  But if there is a residual number of children who have great difficulty, then some psychological or physical/congenital abnormality would appear to be present.  Only in such cases would the label "dyslexic" seem warranted. What is the cause(s), and how can it be remedied? A study into the background of each such child would help in finding possible common factors, including socio-economic, family structure and habits, hereditary.

Response:

Alright. I may be confusing dyslexia with illiteracy, but a definition would help at this stage: "Dyslexia is….." ?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK. Look at it from the opposite angle – what are the symptoms of dyslexia, graded according to severity: (1) inability to read, at all; (2) difficulty with reading, but can read somewhat; (3) some difficulty with letters, or words, in some cases. Once these are detailed, then tackling the cause(s) gets more specific and possibly curable.     Dyslexia is not (remember the not, very important because it seems to be what you’re missing) defined by an inability to read. You’ve confused a symptom with the underlying problem. Some dyslexics can’t read too well. Others can read just fine. Not being able to read is illiteracy, not dyslexia. The fact that most of this NG is dyslexic proves that reading is possible.     If a dyslexic is able to read, then they’ve been able to compensate for the symptoms that made reading difficult in the first place, they have not been cured and the problems still exist.     It’s clear that you’ve come up with some theories on how dyslexia should be dealt with without understanding dyslexia in the slightest.

Response:

[ If "bottom posting" is the official norm, then why, when I click on "Reply Group", does the panel open with a line-space at top of page, and cursor in top-left position? ]   The quoted definition (below) is characterised by vagueness and generality.   "Dyslexia is BEST described as a COMBINATION of….etc" which adds little to meaning.   However, taking the word etymologically: "dys-" means the reverse of easy (ie hard); and "-lexia" ie. "phrase, word" – from "speak".   I assume we mean more the written, than spoken, word.  Do dyslexics have real trouble with speech, or mostly with reading and writing?  If they don’t jumble words in speech, then why so when reading a page of text – unless never taught to go from top left to bottom right, or, if taught it, are incapable of following such rule?   I’d allege that a "consistent" dyslexic would have to have difficulties in both areas – if not, why not?   Does a dyslexic have a truly malfunctioning brain, or merely a lazy one?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright. I may be confusing dyslexia with illiteracy, but a definition would help at this stage: "Dyslexia is….." ? <snip Would you please post responses under the text you are responding to, like I am? This is called bottom posting and was the convention on Usenet from its inception. As to your question, a 30 search found this: http://www.bda-dyslexia.org.uk/main/information/extras/x02stats.asp To quote from the site: 1. BDA definition of dyslexia. "Dyslexia is best described as a combination of abilities and difficulties that affect the learning process in one or more of reading, spelling, writing. Accompanying weaknesses may be identified in areas of speed of processing, short-term memory, sequencing and organisation, auditory and/or visual perception, spoken language and motor skills. It is particularly related to mastering and using written language, which may include alphabetic, numeric and musical notation. Some dyslexics have outstanding creative skills. Others have strong oral skills. Some have no outstanding talents. They all have strengths. Dyslexia can occur despite normal intellectual ability and teaching. It is independent of socio-economic or language background."(The Dyslexia Handbook 2002, p67.) You will also find links to lots of other useful sites for research on that page. — Flash Gordon Sometimes I think shooting would be far too good for some people. Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it.

Response:

OK. Look at it from the opposite angle – what are the symptoms of dyslexia, graded according to severity: (1) inability to read, at all; (2) difficulty with reading, but can read somewhat; (3) some difficulty with letters, or words, in some cases. Once these are detailed, then tackling the cause(s) gets more specific and possibly curable.

snips due to top posting…. okay why not try searching for what dyslexia is? try this link. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=what+is+dyslexia&spell=1 is a quick google search, should cover most bases. i really think before useing words such as "cureable" you really should read up on the subject, to be frank in the words of the geeks RTFM. Roger

Response:

<snip okay why not try searching for what dyslexia is? try this link. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=what+is+dyslexia&spell=1 is a quick google search, should cover most bases. i really think before useing words such as "cureable" you really should read up on the subject, to be frank in the words of the geeks RTFM.

As a geek I fell that I have to point out that it would be STFW in this instance. Of course, if you don’t know what that meen you will just have to STFW — Flash Gordon Sometimes I think shooting would be far too good for some people. Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it.

Response:

If Dyslexia is "a severe problem with learning how to read", then this could be a result of – (1) The method of teaching; (2) The teacher; (3) The student: (a) psychological, or (b) physiological. It seems necessary to analyse each of these possibilities and clearly distinguish between them. If most children in a school have no trouble learning how to read, then it would seem that neither the teaching method, nor the teachers, nor the children, is at fault.  But if there is a residual number of children who have great difficulty, then some psychological or physical/congenital abnormality would appear to be present.  Only in such cases would the label "dyslexic" seem warranted. What is the cause(s), and how can it be remedied? A study into the background of each such child would help in finding possible common factors, including socio-economic, family structure and habits, hereditary.

Response:

Definatly not what Ted Rosenburg says and thinks it is No if it were solely reading it would not have any real existance in non literate societies, yet whatever gives rise to it, must always have been there, and only became relevant in a more demanding society. ergo it is social. Larry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright. I may be confusing dyslexia with illiteracy, but a definition would help at this stage: "Dyslexia is….." ? OK. Look at it from the opposite angle – what are the symptoms of dyslexia, graded according to severity: (1) inability to read, at all; (2) difficulty with reading, but can read somewhat; (3) some difficulty with letters, or words, in some cases. Once these are detailed, then tackling the cause(s) gets more specific and possibly curable.     Dyslexia is not (remember the not, very important because it seems to be what you’re missing) defined by an inability to read. You’ve confused a symptom with the underlying problem. Some dyslexics can’t read too well. Others can read just fine. Not being able to read is illiteracy, not dyslexia. The fact that most of this NG is dyslexic proves that reading is possible.     If a dyslexic is able to read, then they’ve been able to compensate for the symptoms that made reading difficult in the first place, they have not been cured and the problems still exist.     It’s clear that you’ve come up with some theories on how dyslexia should be dealt with without understanding dyslexia in the slightest.

Response:

To respond to comments below – 1) Here we are starting to analyse symptoms into some kind of distinct factors, each of which might have different causes.

    But the symptoms themselves are largely related. Dyslexics generally suffer from several in variable degrees.     Take for instance tying your shoes. We can agree that tying your shoes is about as far removed from reading as one can get, and the method, or lack of literacy, that were used to teach you reading have nothing to do with shoe tying.     Yet a lot of dyslexic children have difficulties learning to tie their shoes. It’s one of the warning signs of dyslexia. 2) Even such a seemingly "obvious" factor in writing (or reading) from left to right (c-a-t spells "cat") may not be at all obvious – unless you are actually taught it!

    The problem is when a dyslexic looks at a word, it may not appear the same way a non-dyslexic would see it. 3) Also, when I was at school, we did "transcription", ie copying letters, with B,b and P,p grouped, to avoid confusion which may arise with these similar lower-case script characters – to the non-discriminating eye.

    Dyslexia is not caused by a problem with distinguishing letters. I can vouch for that much. 5) I’d claim that, unless a person has an actual brain or motor physical disorder, their alleged symptom is thus psychological and should be curable. 6) There are all sorts of frauds perpetrated on the public, consciously or unconsciously, and a cynic might suspect that "dyslexia" is one of them. Bad teaching methods can be fertile ground for "remedial teaching, psychologists, thesis experts, and even disadvantaged students" all of whom can profit by it.

    The problem with this theory is there are a lot of people who would like to have dyslexia dissappear. What is probably the most common problem in this group is parents who are trying to get their children properly diagnosed by school district standards. The schools don’t want to have to pay out extra money to teach dyslexics properly, and they’re notorious for misdiagnosing students.     There are, however, ways to make money off dyslexia. They usually involve your word, cure. There are enough parents of dyslexic children out there who would be willing to shell out a lot of money if they are led to believe someone may be offering a potential cure for their children. These cures are pretty much bogus without any scientific backing, and improvements that do happen are usually due to following tried and true methods in addition to the supposed cure. 7) Does dyslexia occur in foreign nations, or is it mainly or only a mental disorder of English-speaking countries?

    I’d be particularly interested in any information about dyslexia and forgien languages. I’m curious what the effect would be with languages that have different alphabets (Russian and Japanese for instance) or whole word letters (like Mandrin). It is claimed that some English-speaking people, who are otherwise dyslexic, can better learn a foreign language.  Why is this so?  Is a different teaching method the reason?

    I’ve never heard of this, and find it very difficult to learn a foreign language.

Response:

Alright. I may be confusing dyslexia with illiteracy, but a definition would help at this stage: "Dyslexia is….." ?

<snip Would you please post responses under the text you are responding to, like I am? This is called bottom posting and was the convention on Usenet from its inception. As to your question, a 30 search found this: http://www.bda-dyslexia.org.uk/main/information/extras/x02stats.asp To quote from the site: 1. BDA definition of dyslexia. "Dyslexia is best described as a combination of abilities and difficulties that affect the learning process in one or more of reading, spelling, writing. Accompanying weaknesses may be identified in areas of speed of processing, short-term memory, sequencing and organisation, auditory and/or visual perception, spoken language and motor skills. It is particularly related to mastering and using written language, which may include alphabetic, numeric and musical notation. Some dyslexics have outstanding creative skills. Others have strong oral skills. Some have no outstanding talents. They all have strengths. Dyslexia can occur despite normal intellectual ability and teaching. It is independent of socio-economic or language background."(The Dyslexia Handbook 2002, p67.)

You will also find links to lots of other useful sites for research on that page. — Flash Gordon Sometimes I think shooting would be far too good for some people. Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it.

Response:

How were you taught English at school – by Phonics, or the Whole Word Method?  Someone taught by the latter, "guessing", method could take a life-time of undoing to correct.  I’m prepared to concede that a malady called ‘dyslexia’ does exist – but only when all possible causes of inability to read and write have been examined; even then it still has to be explained in terms of physical or psychological abnormality of some kind.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [ If "bottom posting" is the official norm, then why, when I click on "Reply Group", does the panel open with a line-space at top of page, and cursor in top-left position? ] Because Microsoft tend to ignore standards. This site looks like it has a good discussion on the topic, including quoting the relevant RFC: http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html A: Because it is harder to read Q: Why is top posting wrong? Or to put it another way, I have to keep scrolling up and down to see what the fsck is going on in your posts. BTW, I don’t complain about dyslexics top posting because this group is to support dyslexics, and complaining does not help.   The quoted definition (below) is characterised by vagueness and generality.   "Dyslexia is BEST described as a COMBINATION of….etc" which adds   little to meaning. Well, I suggest you tell the British Dyslexia Association (A major charity supporting Dyslexics in the UK) that they are not helpful. Of course, you could have checked out the links they provide (which I suggested might be helpful) and found on http://www.interdys.org/servlet/compose?section_id=5&page_id=95 a definition that might be more to your liking. I quote: |  Dyslexia is a specific learning disability that is neurological in |  origin. It is characterized by difficulties with accurate and / or    ^^^^^^ |  fluent word recognition and by poor spelling and decoding abilities. |  These difficulties typically result from a deficit in the |  phonological component of language that is often unexpected in |  relation to other cognitive abilities and the provision of effective |  classroom instruction. Secondary consequences may include problems in |  reading comprehension and reduced reading experience that can impede |  growth of vocabulary and background knowledge   However, taking the word etymologically: "dys-" means the reverse of   easy (ie hard); and "-lexia" ie. "phrase, word" – from "speak".   I assume we mean more the written, than spoken, word. Yes, it generally affects reading and writing rather than spoken language.  Do dyslexics have real trouble with speech, or mostly with reading  and writing?  If they don’t jumble words in speech, then why so when reading a page of text – unless never taught to go from top left to bottom right, or, if taught it, are incapable of following such rule? Well, in extreme cases there is not much understanding of the difference between left and write. It was certainly a concept which I had great difficulty with, although in my case learning to play a musical instrument helped.   I’d allege that a "consistent" dyslexic would have to have   difficulties in both areas – if not, why not? Because processing written language uses different portions of the brain. Even today (at 37) I have to internally convert the written word in to the spoken word and "listen" to myself internally vocalising in order to read. Something I am told that "normal" people do not have to do. Also, to write or type English I have to internally say what I am writing/typing.   Does a dyslexic have a truly malfunctioning brain, or merely a lazy   one? Well, since a lot of dyslexics have worked very hard to learn to read/write (in my case it is bad enough that my mind has completely blanked out that part of my life, but my mum tells me that it frequently led to tears of frustration) it is hard to think that it could be laziness. <snip I also suggest you do some basic research. There is evidence (brain scans) of dyslexics using different parts of the brain for processing the written word to "normal" people. — Flash Gordon Sometimes I think shooting would be far too good for some people. Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it.

Response:

To respond to comments below – 1) Here we are starting to analyse symptoms into some kind of distinct factors, each of which might have different causes.

Not we, you are 2) Even such a seemingly "obvious" factor in writing (or reading) from left to right (c-a-t spells "cat") may not be at all obvious – unless you are actually taught it!

You forget the next step, converting the written word cat into the concept of a cat 3) Also, when I was at school, we did "transcription", ie copying letters, with B,b and P,p grouped, to avoid confusion which may arise with these similar lower-case script characters – to the non-discriminating eye.

see my other answer to you 4) All language consists of verbal constructs which have three aspects – concept, text, and sound – and it is important that the three be emphasised and taught if a full understanding of any word, or letter, is to be grasped.

Ok, but as the word cat does not have any resemblance to a picture of a cat it can be very difficult for some people. 5) I’d claim that, unless a person has an actual brain or motor physical disorder, their alleged symptom is thus psychological and should be curable.

This disorder is not greater as that of a person who thinks that reading from bottom to top is the best way 6) There are all sorts of frauds perpetrated on the public, consciously or unconsciously, and a cynic might suspect that "dyslexia" is one of them. Bad teaching methods can be fertile ground for "remedial teaching, psychologists, thesis experts, and even disadvantaged students" all of whom can profit by it.

That’s why a good diagnostic is essential 7) Does dyslexia occur in foreign nations, or is it mainly or only a mental disorder of English-speaking countries?

Yes, it’s slightly higher in English-speaking environments because English is less consistent in sound/writing relations It is claimed that some English-speaking people, who are otherwise dyslexic, can better learn a foreign language.  Why is this so?  Is a different teaching method the reason?

I doubt that very much, it would several years (say 20) to learn that second language first. — ViSiToR

Response:

If Dyslexia is "a severe problem with learning how to read", then this could be a result of –

yes that is close to the latic definision ( word blindness) and the sterotype yes, but dyslexica is more than that, in that the symtoms of dyslexica incudes more than reading, infact you can be dyslexic even if your reading comprehenchion is fine… (1) The method of teaching; (2) The teacher; (3) The student: (a) psychological, or (b) physiological. It seems necessary to analyse each of these possibilities and clearly distinguish between them. If most children in a school have no trouble learning how to read, then it would seem that neither the teaching method, nor the teachers, nor the children, is at fault.  But if there is a residual number of children who have great difficulty, then some psychological or physical/congenital abnormality would appear to be present.  Only in such cases would the label "dyslexic" seem warranted. What is the cause(s), and how can it be remedied? A study into the background of each such child would help in finding possible common factors, including socio-economic, family structure and habits, hereditary.

applying satstics to individual classes in a primary school is way too small a number for satstics to be useful, as a tool, for better or for worse there are tests for dyslexica which hopefully pick up the dyslexic child, though of course a child has to noticed, not nessarly a easy task given that children often devop at very differnat speeds. remedied well the dyslexic needs a training in their weaknesses so that they can make up some of the short fall, but no matter how much training they are still dyslexic and thus have problems in areas. ie a cure there isn’t but it can be combated. Roger

Response:

Oh yes and some of us are dyscalculic, not that some people recognise that with there narrow focus on reading as if that is the be all and end all.. Larry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK. Look at it from the opposite angle – what are the symptoms of dyslexia, graded according to severity: (1) inability to read, at all; (2) difficulty with reading, but can read somewhat; (3) some difficulty with letters, or words, in some cases. Once these are detailed, then tackling the cause(s) gets more specific and possibly curable.

Response:

How were you taught English at school – by Phonics, or the Whole Word Method?  Someone taught by the latter, "guessing", method could take a life-time of undoing to correct.  I’m prepared to concede that a malady called ‘dyslexia’ does exist – but only when all possible causes of inability to read and write have been examined; even then it still has to be explained in terms of physical or psychological abnormality of some kind.

Once again, This has all been studied, the answers are there, go and read in the right places. But first: Dyslexia is not a "malady", there is no physical or psychological "abnormality" and it has nothing to do with learning methods. Positively speaking it has to do with the extreme efforts a dyslectic person has to make in learning to read and write. It is a very selective disturbance in automating the skills that are needed for such. — ViSiToR

Response:

[ If "bottom posting" is the official norm, then why, when I click on "Reply Group", does the panel open with a line-space at top of page, and cursor in top-left position? ]

Because Microsoft tend to ignore standards. This site looks like it has a good discussion on the topic, including quoting the relevant RFC: http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html A: Because it is harder to read Q: Why is top posting wrong? Or to put it another way, I have to keep scrolling up and down to see what the fsck is going on in your posts. BTW, I don’t complain about dyslexics top posting because this group is to support dyslexics, and complaining does not help.   The quoted definition (below) is characterised by vagueness and generality.   "Dyslexia is BEST described as a COMBINATION of….etc" which adds   little to meaning.

Well, I suggest you tell the British Dyslexia Association (A major charity supporting Dyslexics in the UK) that they are not helpful. Of course, you could have checked out the links they provide (which I suggested might be helpful) and found on http://www.interdys.org/servlet/compose?section_id=5&page_id=95 a definition that might be more to your liking. I quote: |  Dyslexia is a specific learning disability that is neurological in |  origin. It is characterized by difficulties with accurate and / or    ^^^^^^ |  fluent word recognition and by poor spelling and decoding abilities. |  These difficulties typically result from a deficit in the |  phonological component of language that is often unexpected in |  relation to other cognitive abilities and the provision of effective |  classroom instruction. Secondary consequences may include problems in |  reading comprehension and reduced reading experience that can impede |  growth of vocabulary and background knowledge   However, taking the word etymologically: "dys-" means the reverse of   easy (ie hard); and "-lexia" ie. "phrase, word" – from "speak".   I assume we mean more the written, than spoken, word.

Yes, it generally affects reading and writing rather than spoken language.  Do dyslexics have real trouble with speech, or mostly with reading  and writing?  If they don’t jumble words in speech, then why so when reading a page of text – unless never taught to go from top left to bottom right, or, if taught it, are incapable of following such rule?

Well, in extreme cases there is not much understanding of the difference between left and write. It was certainly a concept which I had great difficulty with, although in my case learning to play a musical instrument helped.   I’d allege that a "consistent" dyslexic would have to have   difficulties in both areas – if not, why not?

Because processing written language uses different portions of the brain. Even today (at 37) I have to internally convert the written word in to the spoken word and "listen" to myself internally vocalising in order to read. Something I am told that "normal" people do not have to do. Also, to write or type English I have to internally say what I am writing/typing.   Does a dyslexic have a truly malfunctioning brain, or merely a lazy   one?

Well, since a lot of dyslexics have worked very hard to learn to read/write (in my case it is bad enough that my mind has completely blanked out that part of my life, but my mum tells me that it frequently led to tears of frustration) it is hard to think that it could be laziness. <snip I also suggest you do some basic research. There is evidence (brain scans) of dyslexics using different parts of the brain for processing the written word to "normal" people. — Flash Gordon Sometimes I think shooting would be far too good for some people. Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it.

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I even speak in jumbled letters, lets here it for the rev Spooner shall we. As for language, you herd on the motor thery on language yet ? or cognitive linguistics, bin you a whorfian or no ? Larry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To respond to comments below – 1) Here we are starting to analyse symptoms into some kind of distinct factors, each of which might have different causes. 2) Even such a seemingly "obvious" factor in writing (or reading) from left to right (c-a-t spells "cat") may not be at all obvious – unless you are actually taught it! 3) Also, when I was at school, we did "transcription", ie copying letters, with B,b and P,p grouped, to avoid confusion which may arise with these similar lower-case script characters – to the non-discriminating eye. 4) All language consists of verbal constructs which have three aspects – concept, text, and sound – and it is important that the three be emphasised and taught if a full understanding of any word, or letter, is to be grasped. 5) I’d claim that, unless a person has an actual brain or motor physical disorder, their alleged symptom is thus psychological and should be curable. 6) There are all sorts of frauds perpetrated on the public, consciously or unconsciously, and a cynic might suspect that "dyslexia" is one of them. Bad teaching methods can be fertile ground for "remedial teaching, psychologists, thesis experts, and even disadvantaged students" all of whom can profit by it. 7) Does dyslexia occur in foreign nations, or is it mainly or only a mental disorder of English-speaking countries? It is claimed that some English-speaking people, who are otherwise dyslexic, can better learn a foreign language.  Why is this so?  Is a different teaching method the reason?

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Well my STM is F*cked Larry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright. I may be confusing dyslexia with illiteracy, but a definition would help at this stage: "Dyslexia is….." ?     It’s a learning disability that effects a person’s ability to read (dyslexic symptoms), ability to write (dysgraphic symptoms), sense of left and right, ability to work with ordered lists (this might be disputed), short term memory (definitely disputed), and in a some instances difficulties with simple mathematics (discalcu symptoms). The actual symptoms and their severity differ from person to person.     It’s important to note that the actual problems are caused by the brain’s inability to properly process information. For instance, words can get jumbled on the page. When a dyslexic reads, the letters of a word can appear in a different order to them than what it on the page. You can see how this can create problems with reading.

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Top Dog – or Lowly Cur? There’s long sight, and there’s myopia, But I suffer – dys-end-top-ia; Which means that I write topsy-turvy, And brands me as a knave, quite scurvy; Who won’t, or can’t, obey the rules, When I cast to swine, my mental pearls. ‘Cos posting requires an addendum, Not prefaced, but bottom-ending. Yet I prefer: prime post, with quotes, And past comments, as footnotes. To those demanding it end-after’d; All I say is – go, get shafted. DYSLEXIA, a difficulty in reading that is disproportionate relative to other intellectual abilities. It is considered to be a congenital disability in organizing, which affects short-term memory, hand skills, and perception, leading to difficulties with literary skills. It is typified by erratic spelling, often accompanied by letter reversals or word reversals. This indicates that one of the difficulties lies in imposing a consistent spatial orientation on written material. Other possible causes may lie in relating what words look like to how they sound. Recent research suggests that dyslexia is linked to a neurological abnormality that affects vision. There are about 2.5 million dyslexics in the UK.     – "Oxford Interactive Encyclopedia" DYSDOCTRINA – a misconception relating to teaching of the English language, whereby blame is shifted from the teaching method onto the child; result is: dyslexia.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [ If "bottom posting" is the official norm, then why, when I click on "Reply Group", does the panel open with a line-space at top of page, and cursor in top-left position? ]

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<Top-posting repaired – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright. I may be confusing dyslexia with illiteracy, but a definition would help at this stage: "Dyslexia is….." ? <snip Would you please post responses under the text you are responding to, like I am? This is called bottom posting and was the convention on Usenet from its inception. As to your question, a 30 search found this: http://www.bda-dyslexia.org.uk/main/information/extras/x02stats.asp To quote from the site: 1. BDA definition of dyslexia. "Dyslexia is best described as a combination of abilities and difficulties that affect the learning process in one or more of reading, spelling, writing. Accompanying weaknesses may be identified in areas of speed of processing, short-term memory, sequencing and organisation, auditory and/or visual perception, spoken language and motor skills. It is particularly related to mastering and using written language, which may include alphabetic, numeric and musical notation. Some dyslexics have outstanding creative skills. Others have strong oral skills. Some have no outstanding talents. They all have strengths. Dyslexia can occur despite normal intellectual ability and teaching. It is independent of socio-economic or language background."(The Dyslexia Handbook 2002, p67.) You will also find links to lots of other useful sites for research on that page. — Flash Gordon Sometimes I think shooting would be far too good for some people. Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it. [ If "bottom posting" is the official norm, then why, when I click on "Reply Group", does the panel open with a line-space at top of page, and cursor in top-left position? ]

Choose the appropriate answer(s). a. You are not using a proper newsreader. b. You are not willing to comply to conventions. c. You are a troll. d. You read from bottom to top, most people don’t.   The quoted definition (below) is characterised by vagueness and generality.   "Dyslexia is BEST described as a COMBINATION of….etc" which adds little to meaning.   However, taking the word etymologically: "dys-" means the reverse of easy (ie hard); and "-lexia" ie. "phrase, word" – from "speak".   I assume we mean more the written, than spoken, word.  Do dyslexics have real trouble with speech, or mostly with reading and writing?  If they don’t jumble words in speech, then why so when reading a page of text – unless never taught to go from top left to bottom right, or, if taught it, are incapable of following such rule?   I’d allege that a "consistent" dyslexic would have to have difficulties in both areas – if not, why not?

This is a dyslexia support-group, not a group where you can learn all about dyslexia. These questions are off-topic here.   Does a dyslexic have a truly malfunctioning brain, or merely a lazy one?

They have a different, much better brain. — ViSiToR

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OK. Look at it from the opposite angle – what are the symptoms of dyslexia, graded according to severity: (1) inability to read, at all; (2) difficulty with reading, but can read somewhat; (3) some difficulty with letters, or words, in some cases. Once these are detailed, then tackling the cause(s) gets more specific and possibly curable.

    Dyslexia is not (remember the not, very important because it seems to be what you’re missing) defined by an inability to read. You’ve confused a symptom with the underlying problem. Some dyslexics can’t read too well. Others can read just fine. Not being able to read is illiteracy, not dyslexia. The fact that most of this NG is dyslexic proves that reading is possible.     If a dyslexic is able to read, then they’ve been able to compensate for the symptoms that made reading difficult in the first place, they have not been cured and the problems still exist.     It’s clear that you’ve come up with some theories on how dyslexia should be dealt with without understanding dyslexia in the slightest.

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Question:

What is "Dysgraphia"?

Dysgraphia is difficulty in learning to write. It’s different from having problems with spelling.  Someone with severe dysgraphia may be able to spell a word orally, but when he attempts to write it, he mis-forms the letters or writes the wrong letters. Stowe Davison (ess double-u davison at erols dot com)

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My  10 year old son was just diagnosed with dysgraphia.  Does anyone know where I can get information.  I know this isn’t directly on topic, but  I would appreciate your help very much . Greg Bester

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My  10 year old son was just diagnosed with dysgraphia.  Does anyone know where I can get information.  I know this isn’t directly on topic, but  I would appreciate your help very much .

You might try asking the Orton Dyslexia Society for advice.  They have a web site but I’m afraid I cannot remember what the URL is. —                        |   To reply, please remove: REMOVE_THIS_. "If we don’t succeed, then we run the risk of failure." – Vice President Dan Quayle, Texas Republican Convention, 1989.

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My  10 year old son was just diagnosed with dysgraphia.  Does anyone know where I can get information.  I know this isn’t directly on topic, but  I would appreciate your help very much . You might try asking the Orton Dyslexia Society for advice.  They have a web site but I’m afraid I cannot remember what the URL is.

The Orton Dyslexia Society recently changed its name to The International Dyslexia Association.  Their URL is: http://www.interdys.org I agree with Will — The IDA would be a good place to start.  They have a pretty active bulletin board, and they’re a nonprofit research and support outfit not associated with any commercial remediation company. (Although they accept sponsorship from at least one company that sells scanning/reading software.) As Frank said, dysgraphia is very much on topic in this NG.  It’s usually thought of as a part of dyslexia. Please check out the IDA, and keep reading this NG.  If you find a good information source more specifically about dysgraphia, please share it with us — and anything else you discover! Stowe Davison (email   —  ess double-u davison at erols dot com — fleeing  spam)

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You might try asking the Orton Dyslexia Society for

advice.  They have a Ehat is "Dysgraphia"?

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What is "Dysgraphia"? Dysgraphia is difficulty in learning to write. It’s different from having problems with spelling.  Someone with severe dysgraphia may be able to spell a word orally, but when he attempts to write it, he mis-forms the letters or writes the wrong letters. Stowe Davison (ess double-u davison at erols dot com)

Precisely. In that sense, you could call it "reverse dyslexia." The student may be able to read (pick up letters and words from a piece of paper and process them). But when it comes to mentally picturing them and transferring them onto a piece of paper, there is a coordination or copying problem.  

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I am taking a class on learning disabilities. I have to do a presentation on dysgraphia. If you have a child who has been diagnosed with this, please let me know when they were diagnosed, who first noticed the problem and what service your son or daughter is receiving. Thanks

    I don’t know if this’ll help any, but I have really bad dysgraphia, and no children. I was only diagnosed a few years ago, I can’t remember just when. Maybe four years ago, about the same time I was diagnosed with dyslexia. Through out school my teachers noticed I had serious problems with writing, along with complaining about other symptoms of dyslexia. Only one suspected dyslexia, and she failed to follow through with it.     As for what services I’ve received, before getting my computer I spent anywhere from one to ten hours a day writing things out by hand on notebook paper. And after a few years I started to see some real improvement, where my writing was at least able to be read by other people. After I got a computer, I pretty much gave up on writing by hand entirely, and my handwriting has regressed a bit since then. But I can type really well and fast now. The computer makes life so much easier.

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I am taking a class on learning disabilities. I have to do a presentation on dysgraphia. If you have a child who has been diagnosed with this, please let me know when they were diagnosed, who first noticed the problem and what service your son or daughter is receiving. Thanks

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^ My  10 year old son was just diagnosed with dysgraphia.  Does anyone know ^ where I can get information.  I know this isn’t directly on topic, but  I ^ would appreciate your help very much . It is very on topic. I’m sorry, I don’t know the answer to your question, but I wanted to ask you why you came to a dyslexia newsgroup for information on dysgraphia. Was your son diagnosed with dyslexia, of which the major problem he has is dysgraphia? If he was diagnosed as having only dysgraphia, not dyslexia, then I recommend you familiarize yourself with the other symptoms of dyslexia. You can find links to information on dyslexia, and possibly dysgraphia, on our website at <http://www.imagepublishing.net/dyslexia/. Frank — Visit the alt.support.dyslexia web site at: http://www.imagepublishing.net/dyslexia/

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Question:

I have been taking a few e-classes at Portland State University in Portland, OR.  I did not know I was dyslexic at the time.  E-learning has been a two edged sword for me.  A big problem for me is decoding the phonics of a spoken voice (namely that of the professor) and it is compounded when the professor is foreign, as many are.  So in that regard online learning is a blessing because I do not have to sit in class and struggle to "hear" the teacher (I have well above perfect hearing, btw). However, what I found was that in addition to losing the audio, which was fine, I also lost the visual, and was faced instead with a wall of text.  At least in class I could watch the professor’s body language for cues to importance and meaning, and excelled in classes where a lot of pictures, videos, mini-in-class-experiments, and other non- pure-data-assimilation methods were used.  Online you pretty much got text, text, and more text.  Eeek! PSU offers support for students with disabilities and I’ve seen them be very good about that with other students and with promoting awareness of it.  I’m sure I could have gotten "extra time" for tests and maybe due dates but I imagine that’s about it.  Despite the promise of broadband and the possibility for classes which integrate rich multimedia and interactive experiences, the text-only kind is cheaper, more efficient, and only leaves a minority percentage of students behind. I do not think e-learning is the best option for most dyslexics as primarily visual thinkers. Hope this helps some, and good luck with the study. Josh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello dear all. I am a dyslextic e-learning student. just found it out in the last year of my msc. e-learning, multimedia and consultancy study. when I discovered the shock I found out that there is hardly any support for online students. for instance, when I asked for support, I was offered stickers to put on my work. for all these reasons I am writing my dissertation on online support for e-learning students. is there anyone else around with experience as an online dyslextic student? what kind of support did you want and what did you get? thanks for your time, Ang

Question:

Hi Kathy Thanks for the advice Regards Leslie…UK:-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Leslie, This is just a thought but why don’t you time yourself when you begin studying.  Maybe start with 15 minutes to begin with, a 5 minute break, 15 minutes, a 5 minute break etc.  If you have several days to do the studying, maybe divide the pages by that many days and stop when you’ve reached your daily goal.  If you don’t overload yourself, you probably won’t fight picking up the material the next time. The methold behind my madness:  From what I’ve learned about dyslexia with our son, you have to work twice as hard as anyone else to complete the same reading task.  When I first started teaching how to read, he could only read about 5 sentences and then he was so tired.   He’d even get black circle under his eyes.  I would put the book away and take it out the next day. We’ve been doing it like that all year and now he can read at least 6 pages before he tires. Hopefully Raymond will pop in here with some suggestions. Take care Kathy Hi all Dose anyone out there have the same problem of me, that it take you a long time to get started doing anything when it comes to studying. But when you then get round to it you do it to a point where you get over loaded, then it is a long while before you do any again. I would like some help on how to keep it constant, so the gaps between me doing it is not weeks or months, but a few hours to a day or a few days. I know that I have got Dyslexia, but I also feel that I have some ADHD too. I really find it hard to get down to doing any studding or reading for my job. Regards Les

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Actually, that is not so strange.  ADHD is treated most commonly by stimulant drugs.  So, although people are not prescribed "diet pills", the active ingredient, at least in some of the drugs, is basically the same.  It is not unusual to hear of adults with ADHD who had some difficulties concentrating and who took some over-the-counter diet pills for a while and realized it helped them a great deal.  If the particular pills you were prescribed did not work, talk to a physician.  There are a variety of drugs and, although they all act fundamentally the same, they each do not work on the same neurotransmitters so, depending on which of yours are problematic, the drugs may not work at all.  Changing meds may make a huge difference to you. Maria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    this is going to sound bad but I’m being serious (and no I’m not a drug addict….I took a stimulant (prescribed by my doc) to help me loose weight called Adapex and I could focus so well and quit having those  yo -yo’s you are talking about.  I could only take them for 3 mo. (some kind of law) and so afterwards the doc put me on Adderall it works a little with focus but nothing like the Adapex….I have only found meds to help:-(   If you find another way ..Please let me know I’ll be glad to try it. Hedda Hi Kathy Thanks for the advice Regards Leslie…UK:-) Hi Leslie, This is just a thought but why don’t you time yourself when you begin studying.  Maybe start with 15 minutes to begin with, a 5 minute break, 15 minutes, a 5 minute break etc.  If you have several days to do the studying, maybe divide the pages by that many days and stop when you’ve reached your daily goal.  If you don’t overload yourself, you probably won’t fight picking up the material the next time. The methold behind my madness:  From what I’ve learned about dyslexia with our son, you have to work twice as hard as anyone else to complete the same reading task.  When I first started teaching how to read, he could only read about 5 sentences and then he was so tired.   He’d even get black circle under his eyes.  I would put the book away and take it out the next day. We’ve been doing it like that all year and now he can read at least 6 pages before he tires. Hopefully Raymond will pop in here with some suggestions. Take care Kathy Hi all Dose anyone out there have the same problem of me, that it take you a long time to get started doing anything when it comes to studying. But when you then get round to it you do it to a point where you get over loaded, then it is a long while before you do any again. I would like some help on how to keep it constant, so the gaps between me doing it is not weeks or months, but a few hours to a day or a few days. I know that I have got Dyslexia, but I also feel that I have some ADHD too. I really find it hard to get down to doing any studding or reading for my job. Regards Les

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   this is going to sound bad but I’m being serious (and no I’m not a drug addict….I took a stimulant (prescribed by my doc) to help me loose weight called Adapex and I could focus so well and quit having those  yo -yo’s you are talking about.  I could only take them for 3 mo. (some kind of law) and so afterwards the doc put me on Adderall it works a little with focus but nothing like the Adapex….I have only found meds to help:-(   If you find another way ..Please let me know I’ll be glad to try it. Hedda

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Kathy Thanks for the advice Regards Leslie…UK:-) Hi Leslie, This is just a thought but why don’t you time yourself when you begin studying.  Maybe start with 15 minutes to begin with, a 5 minute break, 15 minutes, a 5 minute break etc.  If you have several days to do the studying, maybe divide the pages by that many days and stop when you’ve reached your daily goal.  If you don’t overload yourself, you probably won’t fight picking up the material the next time. The methold behind my madness:  From what I’ve learned about dyslexia with our son, you have to work twice as hard as anyone else to complete the same reading task.  When I first started teaching how to read, he could only read about 5 sentences and then he was so tired.   He’d even get black circle under his eyes.  I would put the book away and take it out the next day. We’ve been doing it like that all year and now he can read at least 6 pages before he tires. Hopefully Raymond will pop in here with some suggestions. Take care Kathy Hi all Dose anyone out there have the same problem of me, that it take you a long time to get started doing anything when it comes to studying. But when you then get round to it you do it to a point where you get over loaded, then it is a long while before you do any again. I would like some help on how to keep it constant, so the gaps between me doing it is not weeks or months, but a few hours to a day or a few days. I know that I have got Dyslexia, but I also feel that I have some ADHD too. I really find it hard to get down to doing any studding or reading for my job. Regards Les

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Hi all Dose anyone out there have the same problem of me, that it take you a long time to get started doing anything when it comes to studying. But when you then get round to it you do it to a point where you get over loaded, then it is a long while before you do any again. I would like some help on how to keep it constant, so the gaps between me doing it is not weeks or months, but a few hours to a day or a few days. I know that I have got Dyslexia, but I also feel that I have some ADHD too. I really find it hard to get down to doing any studding or reading for my job. Regards Les

Response:

Hi Leslie, This is just a thought but why don’t you time yourself when you begin studying.  Maybe start with 15 minutes to begin with, a 5 minute break, 15 minutes, a 5 minute break etc.  If you have several days to do the studying, maybe divide the pages by that many days and stop when you’ve reached your daily goal.  If you don’t overload yourself, you probably won’t fight picking up the material the next time. The methold behind my madness:  From what I’ve learned about dyslexia with our son, you have to work twice as hard as anyone else to complete the same reading task.  When I first started teaching how to read, he could only read about 5 sentences and then he was so tired.   He’d even get black circle under his eyes.  I would put the book away and take it out the next day. We’ve been doing it like that all year and now he can read at least 6 pages before he tires. Hopefully Raymond will pop in here with some suggestions. Take care Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all Dose anyone out there have the same problem of me, that it take you a long time to get started doing anything when it comes to studying. But when you then get round to it you do it to a point where you get over loaded, then it is a long while before you do any again. I would like some help on how to keep it constant, so the gaps between me doing it is not weeks or months, but a few hours to a day or a few days. I know that I have got Dyslexia, but I also feel that I have some ADHD too. I really find it hard to get down to doing any studding or reading for my job. Regards Les

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