Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about this for a theory? It seems to me that English is much more of an amalgam of words from many languages than most others and that is why it has so many different variations in pronounciation. Is English made up of more borrowed word than others? I claim no special knowledge of languages, however, I did overhear my wife say she married me because she likes cunning linguists.;} The source of words doesn’t have much if any effect on their pronunciation, which differs according to locality. American English pronunciation of "garage" for example, is a lot closer to the original French than the English English pronunciation, "garej" (which, apropos of nothing, is how the word is actually spelt in Welsh!).

When my English friend keeps insiting that British pronunciation of foreign words is so much more accurate than Amercican (the only example he can ever come up with is "fracas"), garridge is one of my first counter-examples. I try not to laugh too hard when those paragons of proper pronunciation, the BBC newsreaders, speak of French politician "Jack Shee-Hack", German auto firm "Dame-ler-Chryzzz-ler", or my favorite, Central American "Knicker-Rag-You-Are". Where English does differ from many other languages is in the size of its vocabulary — because of its history it has often acquired words meaning basically the same thing from West Germanic (the original Anglo- Saxon), North Germanic (from the Vikings), Norman French, classical or church Latin, Greek, or other languages. Not all the different forms remained in use, or they changed their meaning over time ("deer" for instance, used to mean any animal — compare it to the German "Tier", but the word was replaced by the French "animal" after the conquest). "Beef" was a higher-class French alternative to Anglo-Saxon "meat". Another triplet is the A-S "kingly", French "royal" and Latin "regal", where the words mean basically the same thing but have slightly different nuances.

There are some interesting patterns, such as the Saxon name for an animal and the Norman name of its meat: Steer/Beef, Deer/Venison, Sheep/Mutton, Calf/Veal, etc. There are also cases where a more "English" sounding word is used in a common everyday context, but a Latin or French form is used for a more technical meaning. Ray/radius is an example.

Response:

I try not to laugh too hard when those paragons of proper pronunciation, the BBC newsreaders, speak of French politician "Jack Shee-Hack", German auto firm "Dame-ler-Chryzzz-ler",

If you were a true student of English pronunciation, you would remember that the Great Alec Guinness pronounced the word as "Chryzz-ler" in the "Lavender Hill Mob".  How could one question such an authority? Bob C.

Response:

There are some interesting patterns, such as the Saxon name for an animal and the Norman name of its meat: Steer/Beef, Deer/Venison, Sheep/Mutton, Calf/Veal, etc. There are also cases where a more "English" sounding word is used in a common everyday context, but a Latin or French form is used for a more technical meaning. Ray/radius is an example.

          In fact, there’s an explanation to this pattern : the english speaking people were raising the animals (pigs,oxes,sheeps,chickens, etc…) and the french-speaking upper class were eating them (pork,beef,mutton,poultry…). Some saxon medieval writer (can’t remember his name) wrote a poem complaining about this….      More generally, as the upper class (either of norman descent or having learnt the language in order to be integrated in it)spoke french, most of the technical and erudite words are of french origin as only these educated people used them, and not the mostly illiterate english-speakers. I read somewhere that a great percentage of the english words (say 50%) are of french origin, but that in everyday conversations, they represented a very tiny percentage (say 5%…note that I give these figures only as an example…I don’t remember the real ones).           I believe that english is by far the european language with the greatest number of words.            By the way, some words, even while they have been imported by the normans, were in turn of germanic (frankish) origin (mar shalk— marechal—marshall, for instance).

Response:

And Hungarian? I believe that is quite young, also.  Finnish and Hungarian are indeed related; they are not _closely_ related, but Finnish is virtually unrelated to anything else, so the relationship is close in relative terms.

Finno-Ugrian languages belong to a different "family tree" than Indo-European languages, of which the Romance, Germanic, Celtic, and many other languages are branches. —                   Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar) medieval enthusiast, philologist, and many more interests; for further info, pictures, and attached accounts of a couple medievally-oriented trips to Germany, see web page: Erilar’s Cave Annex: http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo

Response:

How about this for a theory? It seems to me that English is much more of an amalgam of words from many languages than most others and that is why it has so many different variations in pronounciation. Is English made up of more borrowed word than others? I claim no special knowledge of languages, however, I did overhear my wife say she married me because she likes cunning linguists.;}

I think English is considred the most varied language by borrowing. But this affects spelling, not the ease of learning the language. It must be born in mind that languages can be learned without ever learning to read them. English spelling is so, um, insteretingly varied because of the foreign borrowings, and because it’s kept a lot of the trappings of Old English. For instance, the silent "gh" in "night" and "light" comes from a time when they were pronounced, as they are in Bobby Burns-type Scots, "a braw bricht nicht tonicht". —     *                Daly City California                 *     ******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******

Response:

Disagree.  Those languages that have a tonal aspect are more difficult to learn (at least as a second language) than those that do not. That is a relative difference, not an absolute difference, and it depends on what a person’s first language is.

Semantics about semantics. — Michael Forrest

Response:

Well, everything is relative. However, if one grows up speaking chinese and then is learning English as a second language…..they are listening for tones that are not there….and distinguishing them as separate words.  And visa versa. It is actually surprising the number of romance language speakers that are oblivious to the fact that tonal languages even exist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Disagree.  Those languages that have a tonal aspect are more difficult to learn (at least as a second language) than those that do not. That is a relative difference, not an absolute difference, and it depends on what a person’s first language is. And any romance language is more difficult to learn if your primary langugage is tonal. See above.

Response:

How about this for a theory? It seems to me that English is much more of an amalgam of words from many languages than most others and that is why it has so many different variations in pronounciation. Is English made up of more borrowed word than others? I claim no special knowledge of languages, however, I did overhear my wife say she married me because she likes cunning linguists.;}

The source of words doesn’t have much if any effect on their pronunciation, which differs according to locality. American English pronunciation of "garage" for example, is a lot closer to the original French than the English English pronunciation, "garej" (which, apropos of nothing, is how the word is actually spelt in Welsh!). Where English does differ from many other languages is in the size of its vocabulary — because of its history it has often acquired words meaning basically the same thing from West Germanic (the original Anglo- Saxon), North Germanic (from the Vikings), Norman French, classical or church Latin, Greek, or other languages. Not all the different forms remained in use, or they changed their meaning over time ("deer" for instance, used to mean any animal — compare it to the German "Tier", but the word was replaced by the French "animal" after the conquest). "Beef" was a higher-class French alternative to Anglo-Saxon "meat". Another triplet is the A-S "kingly", French "royal" and Latin "regal", where the words mean basically the same thing but have slightly different nuances. Someone once said "Television: nothing good will come of it – the word’s part Greek and part Latin"! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – English is not particularly hard to learn.  Most people like to believe that their native language is harder to learn than any other , but in fact all languages are roughly equal in difficulty in absolute terms.        From what I heard or read from people mastering a lot of languages, they seem to disagree with this statement. But it’s no first hand opinion, of course I don’t feel English is particularly hard to learn.  There are of course some issues.  In contrast with most languages, English is initially hard to understand; while in most other languages, it’s initially harder to speak. Also, it’s relatively easy (easier) to get going initially in English, with very limited knowledge, but harder to master it, compared with other langueges. Anyway, I would say that on the whole, all Indo-European languages are relatively easy.  While for instance Arabic or (the various kinds of) Chinese are harder.

– Arwel Parry http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/

Response:

Disagree.  Those languages that have a tonal aspect are more difficult to learn (at least as a second language) than those that do not.  And any romance language is more difficult to learn if your primary langugage is tonal. English is not particularly hard to learn.  Most people like to believe that their native language is harder to learn than any other, but in fact all languages are roughly equal in difficulty in absolute terms. The oldest languages and most widely spoken languages are usually the easiest, but the differences are quite small.

What is a "difficult" or "easy" language depends VERY much upon what language or languages you have already learned. Languages with a tonal aspect are indeed very different from Romance or Germanic languages, which has to increase the difficulty bridging this gap. Even within languages that share a lot of vocabulary such as English and French, however, there are less obvious problems such as stress and intonation patterns that differ quite noticeably. —                   Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar) medieval enthusiast, philologist, and many more interests; for further info, pictures, and attached accounts of a couple medievally-oriented trips to Germany, see web page: Erilar’s Cave Annex: http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo

Response:

How do you determine which is the oldest of two languages? Usually by examining its literary history and references to the language. Do languages use to appear suddenly??? Sometimes.  Finnish is quite young, as I recall (1500s?).

A) Languages do NOT "appear suddenly". They develop over centuries, first as dialects that gradually become more and more different until they are mutually unintelligle. Somewhere along this development line we begin to call them different languages. B) Finnish did not suddenly appear in medieval times. Perhaps that’s when speakers of other languages began to call it that. —                   Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar) medieval enthusiast, philologist, and many more interests; for further info, pictures, and attached accounts of a couple medievally-oriented trips to Germany, see web page: Erilar’s Cave Annex: http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo

Response:

Do languages use to appear suddenly??? Sometimes.  Finnish is quite young, as I recall (1500s?).

The Finns arrived from east in the 400-800s and of course they brought a language with them. The first Finnish in written form is said to be the bible translation in the 1500s when Sweden rejected the Catholic church in favour of the Protestant.        Lennart Petersen

Response:

Disagree.  Those languages that have a tonal aspect are more difficult to learn (at least as a second language) than those that do not.

That is a relative difference, not an absolute difference, and it depends on what a person’s first language is. And any romance language is more difficult to learn if your primary langugage is tonal.

See above.

Response:

How about this for a theory? It seems to me that English is much more of an amalgam of words from many languages than most others and that is why it has so many different variations in pronounciation. Is English made up of more borrowed word than others? I claim no special knowledge of languages, however, I did overhear my wife say she married me because she likes cunning linguists.;} – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – English is not particularly hard to learn.  Most people like to believe that their native language is harder to learn than any other , but in fact all languages are roughly equal in difficulty in absolute terms.        From what I heard or read from people mastering a lot of languages, they seem to disagree with this statement. But it’s no first hand opinion, of course I don’t feel English is particularly hard to learn.  There are of course some issues.  In contrast with most languages, English is initially hard to understand; while in most other languages, it’s initially harder to speak. Also, it’s relatively easy (easier) to get going initially in English, with very limited knowledge, but harder to master it, compared with other langueges. Anyway, I would say that on the whole, all Indo-European languages are relatively easy.  While for instance Arabic or (the various kinds of) Chinese are harder.

Response:

Disagree.  Those languages that have a tonal aspect are more difficult to learn (at least as a second language) than those that do not.  And any romance language is more difficult to learn if your primary langugage is tonal. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – English is not particularly hard to learn.  Most people like to believe that their native language is harder to learn than any other, but in fact all languages are roughly equal in difficulty in absolute terms. The oldest languages and most widely spoken languages are usually the easiest, but the differences are quite small.

Response:

Do languages use to appear suddenly??? Sometimes.  Finnish is quite young, as I recall (1500s?).

And Hungarian?  (I’ve been told, both by Finns and Hungarians, that the two languages are somehow related, although not closely enough to be recognized as such by any but a philologist.)

Response:

And Hungarian?

I believe that is quite young, also.  Finnish and Hungarian are indeed related; they are not _closely_ related, but Finnish is virtually unrelated to anything else, so the relationship is close in relative terms.

Response:

And Hungarian? I believe that is quite young, also.  Finnish and Hungarian are indeed related; they are not _closely_ related, but Finnish is virtually unrelated to anything else, so the relationship is close in relative terms.

Well, Finnish is related to Estonian, of course, and quite closely, as well as the Sammi languages. It is also related to a number of minor languages scattered across northern and central Asia. —     *                Daly City California                 *     ******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******

Response:

How do you determine which is the oldest of two languages?

Usually by examining its literary history and references to the language. Do languages use to appear suddenly???

Sometimes.  Finnish is quite young, as I recall (1500s?). If so, could you tell me, for instance, which is the oldest between mine (french, in other words mainly a late form of latin) and yours (a germanic language mixed with some of the said late form of latin)?

It depends on where you draw the dividing lines. And the most widely spoken?

English. These statements makes no sense…

Perhaps not to you, but you may not be representative.

Response:

  ??????? How do you determine which is the oldest of two languages? Do languages use to appear suddenly???

Languages evovle over time, and linguists do have ways to determine "how old" a language is, or at least it’s variants today. If so, could you tell me, for instance, which is the oldest between mine (french, in other words mainly a late form of latin) and yours (a germanic language mixed with some of the said late form of latin)?

I don’t believe Norman French would be considered to be the same language as modern French. Certainly, Modern English is not the same language as old English or Anglo Saxon, as any look at Beowulf in the original language would show. Chaucerian English is only nborderline, still filled with inflections shortly to disappear. And the most widely spoken? So, the hindi should be easier to learn than the basque, for instance??????

Hindi is, I believe, an Indo-European language, which might make it a trifle easier than Basque for most of us in Europe or the Americas. —     *                Daly City California                 *     ******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******

Response:

English is not particularly hard to learn.  Most people like to believe that their native language is harder to learn than any other , but in fact all languages are roughly equal in difficulty in absolute terms.        From what I heard or read from people mastering a lot of languages, they seem to disagree with this statement. But it’s no first hand opinion, of course

I don’t feel English is particularly hard to learn.  There are of course some issues.  In contrast with most languages, English is initially hard to understand; while in most other languages, it’s initially harder to speak. Also, it’s relatively easy (easier) to get going initially in English, with very limited knowledge, but harder to master it, compared with other langueges. Anyway, I would say that on the whole, all Indo-European languages are relatively easy.  While for instance Arabic or (the various kinds of) Chinese are harder.

Response:

Have you no sense of humor at ALL????

Humor … it is a difficult concept.

Response:

English is not particularly hard to learn.  Most people like to believe that their native language is harder to learn than any other

, but in fact all languages are roughly equal in difficulty in absolute terms.        From what I heard or read from people mastering a lot of languages, they seem to disagree with this statement. But it’s no first hand opinion, of course The oldest languages and most widely spoken languages are usually the easiest, but the differences are quite small.

   ??????? How do you determine which is the oldest of two languages? Do languages use to appear suddenly??? If so, could you tell me, for instance, which is the oldest between mine (french, in other words mainly a late form of latin) and yours (a germanic language mixed with some of the said late form of latin)?            And the most widely spoken? So, the hindi should be easier to learn than the basque, for instance??????            These statements makes no sense… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

English is not particularly hard to learn.  Most people like to believe that their native language is harder to learn than any other, but in fact all languages are roughly equal in difficulty in absolute terms. The oldest languages and most widely spoken languages are usually the easiest, but the differences are quite small.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oops! Thought I’d posted this once, but it doesn’t seem to have appeared. Never mind, let’s try again. I take it you already know Of tough and bough and cough and dough? Others may stumble, but not you On hiccough, thorough, laugh and through? Well done! And now you wish perhaps To learn of less familiar traps? Beware of heard, a dreadful word That looks like beard and sounds like bird. And dead: it’s said like bed, not bead – For goodness sake don’t call it "deed"! Watch out for meat and great and threat, They rhyme with suite and straight and debt. A moth is not a moth in mother Nor both in bother, broth in brother, And here is not a match for there Nor dear and fear for bear and pear, And then there’s dose and rose and lose – Just look them up – and goose and choose. And cork and work and card and ward, And font and front and word and sword, And do and go and thwart and cart – Come, come, I’ve hardly made a start! A dreadful language? Man alive, I’d mastered it when I was five. by TSW (Quoted in "Alpha to Omega – The A to Z of Reading, Writing and Spelling" by Bev

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