Question:

Is that any job in Canada?  What you describe IS true for most government workers and union workers.

Yes it is in Canada  for almost all jobs true. We are protected under the law and the employers can not just do what they want. These protections can be circumvented even in Canada.  Simply move the unwanted employee around so much and reduce their job duties, that they quit. At this point you are 100% right. The employers always find a way to get you out of the company if they dont want you. But does it really matter which way you left the company? Fact is I still don’t a have job. HappyPolarBear /me just having a depressing day today.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that any job in Canada?  What you describe IS true for most government workers and union workers. But, in the USA, they do have to tell you why, unless they lay you off. The big difference is that if you are laid off, you are eligible for unemployment. If you are fired for cause, you don’t get unemployment. Now the law suits come forth!  And that same 6 month rule can apply in the USA–depending on the court and state. There are many ways for employers to get around this, such as hiring only part time people or hiring people to "try out" and never end the trial period. Then there are right to work, or work at will states–employees have no rights. Nevada is a good example. All of this is to protect the line worker from loosing a job when they did everything right.  It is also to help Affirmative Action programs, so people aren’t let go based on race, origin, nationality, sexual preference, disability, etc. I got So sick of people coming to me and saying they didn’t get this job, or this assignment, or some promotion, when they never bothered to apply in the first place.  I still, to this day, do not understand how stupid people can be. Some people think they have some form of entitlement to a job. In any case, labor law is a big business in the USA–so there are lots of law suits out there for wrongful terminations. These protections can be circumvented even in Canada.  Simply move the unwanted employee around so much and reduce their job duties, that they quit.  A very well worn strategy that works way too often.  IMO FWIW, Nancy

Response:

permanently into the ether: But does it really matter which way you left the company? Fact is I still don’t a have job.

I’m really not familiar with the Canadian system, so I can’t speak to any programs or benefits you might or might not qualify for due to how you were let go. The bottom line, anywhere in the world, is that how you are let go will directly determine how difficult it will be to find other employment.  One of the key questions asked on any application is why you left jobs.  You want a non-attention getting answer.  :) Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor)

Response:

into the ether: Any job.  He worked for a private company, and everybody had the same protection.  I thought California was an "at will" employer.

No, far from it.  California is one of the most employee friendly states. As far as I know they don’t have to tell me anything except "good-bye".  I would  get unemployment, though, unless they fired me for a cause.  But what’s the difference, anyway, if they lay me off or just fire me.  I’m still out of work.

The difference is your future.  If you get fired for cause, you really can’t hide that from a future employer.  also, think of the reference you would receive from an employer who fired you for cause. If you are laid off–there needn’t be a reason for the lay off.  This makes it MUCH easier to find future employment.  Your reason for leaving is "laid off" and you don’t need to say anything further.  Unemployment is supposed to tide you over until you can find another job. Some employers will allow you to quit, rather than fire you for cause.  You loose unemployment this way, but you also have no paper trail of what happened and why you left that employer. Additionally, you can be fired on the spot for certain causes (such as doing drugs on the job), but if you are laid off, there is normally some form of notice and sometimes severance pay. Keep in mind that the court system upholds these protections.  California labor law is very complex, which is why you need a good attorney, if you want to fight your employer. I recently read about a man who was fired–no reason given about 15 years ago. He sued his employer for wrongful termination and he won $4.1 million in back pay and damages.  These cases take years and you have to go on with life while you are suing your former employer. If you work for a larger company (over 200 employees), you should see the writing on the wall.  IOW, larger companies have very specific procedures for lay off or firing with cause.  You are going to get warnings.  You will get counseling from your supervisor.  You will get corrective action memos.  Many things and lots of time will pass–so you should be fully warned that something is about to happen.   None of this is required in an at will state.  There doesn’t have to be any reason to let you go. (sort of) HTH, Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor)

Response:

Any job.  He worked for a private company, and everybody had the same protection.  I thought California was an "at will" employer.  As far as I know they don’t have to tell me anything except "good-bye".  I would  get unemployment, though, unless they fired me for a cause.  But what’s the difference, anyway, if they lay me off or just fire me.  I’m still out of work. Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that any job in Canada?  What you describe IS true for most government workers and union workers. But, in the USA, they do have to tell you why, unless they lay you off. The big difference is that if you are laid off, you are eligible for unemployment. If you are fired for cause, you don’t get unemployment. Now the law suits come forth!  And that same 6 month rule can apply in the USA–depending on the court and state. There are many ways for employers to get around this, such as hiring only part time people or hiring people to "try out" and never end the trial period. Then there are right to work, or work at will states–employees have no rights. Nevada is a good example. All of this is to protect the line worker from loosing a job when they did everything right.  It is also to help Affirmative Action programs, so people aren’t let go based on race, origin, nationality, sexual preference, disability, etc. I got So sick of people coming to me and saying they didn’t get this job, or this assignment, or some promotion, when they never bothered to apply in the first place.  I still, to this day, do not understand how stupid people can be. Some people think they have some form of entitlement to a job. In any case, labor law is a big business in the USA–so there are lots of law suits out there for wrongful terminations. These protections can be circumvented even in Canada.  Simply move the unwanted employee around so much and reduce their job duties, that they quit.  A very well worn strategy that works way too often.  IMO FWIW, Nancy

Response:

Is that any job in Canada?  What you describe IS true for most government workers and union workers. But, in the USA, they do have to tell you why, unless they lay you off.  The big difference is that if you are laid off, you are eligible for unemployment.  If you are fired for cause, you don’t get unemployment. Now the law suits come forth!  And that same 6 month rule can apply in the USA–depending on the court and state. There are many ways for employers to get around this, such as hiring only part time people or hiring people to "try out" and never end the trial period. Then there are right to work, or work at will states–employees have no rights. Nevada is a good example. All of this is to protect the line worker from loosing a job when they did everything right.  It is also to help Affirmative Action programs, so people aren’t let go based on race, origin, nationality, sexual preference, disability, etc. I got So sick of people coming to me and saying they didn’t get this job, or this assignment, or some promotion, when they never bothered to apply in the first place.  I still, to this day, do not understand how stupid people can be. Some people think they have some form of entitlement to a job. In any case, labor law is a big business in the USA–so there are lots of law suits out there for wrongful terminations. These protections can be circumvented even in Canada.  Simply move the unwanted employee around so much and reduce their job duties, that they quit.  A very well worn strategy that works way too often.  IMO FWIW, Nancy into the ether: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was shocked when my husband described Canadian job protection programs to me.  According to him, a company can’t simply fire a person without cause. They have to have a reason, and it had better be a good one or they will get sued.  If they "lay off" someone because their job is being eliminated, then that person may sue them if they open a similar position in the company within 6 months.  It’s really hard to terminate someone, except for violence at the workplace.  Getting into a physical fight results in instant termination, sometimes even if it isn’t your fault.  He was pretty shocked when I told him that I can be fired with no reason given at any time.  I’ve learned a lot about other forms of government from him.  The funny thing is that so many things Canadian seem so much better to me – but he really prefer’s the U.S. model.  Go figure. I guess it’s a case of grass being greener. Diane Hi Carmen- In the USA, if you have a 4 yr degree, they usually won’t let you into any special programs, because you are already highly trained.  So, you have an opportunity that many people don’t get. There are many ways they can give you more time on tests–ask what the procedure is.   One of the ways we (USA) do it in special education in public schools is for everyone to take the test.  When the teacher says time is up, you stop with everyone else while the tests are collected and everyone leaves, except those who get more time.  Those like you will be allowed to finish the test without all the classmates being around.  Sometimes this is a problem for the student, as the test is interrupted and the test "mood" is gone.  You have to tell them, if this is so. Sometimes, you take it after class. HTH, Nancy permanently into the ether: thanks Heather, I am in Canada but I think we have the same rules. How can I get extra time on tests and other assistance without other students noticing. I never was  someone who want a special treatment but then I have changed and having concentration problems doesn’t make things easier for me, maybe I will have to asked for that extra help. Carmen He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I don’t know what country you are in, but I do know that in the United States, even a learning disability like dyslexia requires that students have special needs, such as longer time on tests.  By law, they CAN NOT disclose what your "disability" is, and those records are kept confidential and locked away where only a select few can see them. Basically, no one except for a couple of people will know you are mentally ill.  Everyone else will think that you have a learning disability, something rather common in the United States.

Response:

I was shocked when my husband described Canadian job protection programs to me.  According to him, a company can’t simply fire a person without cause. They have to have a reason, and it had better be a good one or they will get sued.  If they "lay off" someone because their job is being eliminated, then that person may sue them if they open a similar position in the company within 6 months.  It’s really hard to terminate someone, except for violence at the workplace.  Getting into a physical fight results in instant termination, sometimes even if it isn’t your fault.  He was pretty shocked when I told him that I can be fired with no reason given at any time.  I’ve learned a lot about other forms of government from him.  The funny thing is that so many things Canadian seem so much better to me – but he really prefer’s the U.S. model.  Go figure. I guess it’s a case of grass being greener. Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Carmen- In the USA, if you have a 4 yr degree, they usually won’t let you into any special programs, because you are already highly trained.  So, you have an opportunity that many people don’t get. There are many ways they can give you more time on tests–ask what the procedure is.   One of the ways we (USA) do it in special education in public schools is for everyone to take the test.  When the teacher says time is up, you stop with everyone else while the tests are collected and everyone leaves, except those who get more time.  Those like you will be allowed to finish the test without all the classmates being around.  Sometimes this is a problem for the student, as the test is interrupted and the test "mood" is gone.  You have to tell them, if this is so. Sometimes, you take it after class. HTH, Nancy permanently into the ether: thanks Heather, I am in Canada but I think we have the same rules. How can I get extra time on tests and other assistance without other students noticing. I never was  someone who want a special treatment but then I have changed and having concentration problems doesn’t make things easier for me, maybe I will have to asked for that extra help. Carmen He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I don’t know what country you are in, but I do know that in the United States, even a learning disability like dyslexia requires that students have special needs, such as longer time on tests.  By law, they CAN NOT disclose what your "disability" is, and those records are kept confidential and locked away where only a select few can see them. Basically, no one except for a couple of people will know you are mentally ill.  Everyone else will think that you have a learning disability, something rather common in the United States.

Response:

"I can’t be mentally ill".  I bought societies image of mentally ill people – the image of people with hollow eyes, and a crazed look, often living on the streets because they couldn’t function as full members of society.  I wasn’t like that.

Wow Diane, that’s exactly what I think and imagine when ever I see the box in questionnaires "Are you disabled?" "Are you mentally ill?" Thanks for the encouragement. — HappyPolarBear

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sometimes you write things that literally make me flash back to when I was first diagnosed.  I remember the first months, thinking "I can’t be mentally ill".  I bought societies image of mentally ill people – the image of people with hollow eyes, and a crazed look, often living on the streets because they couldn’t function as full members of society.  I wasn’t like that. Eventually, my mental image of "mentally ill" changed to encompass people who have managable conditions, who need to adapt their lifestyle to cope. I think that you are thinking the same way about "disabled" as I was about "mentally ill". A lot of people need special adaptations to cope with life.  The most obvious ones are the blind and deaf.  But a lot of peple have disabilities that are subtler, and need a bit of help in order to be able to live full lives and contribute to society.   Do you read "For Better Or For Worse"? Yes, the comic strip.  This weeks series talked about a girl who needed help in school because she couldn’t recognize the written word – she had to tape everything and have a special assistant.  Should she simply have to give up school, because her disability is not common, and not visible? Of course not.  It isn’t good for her, and it isn’t good for society.  Even non-disabled people sometimes need special accommodations:  I have two co-workers who have had to take a lot of time off work, one because of problems with menopause and the other because of some mysterious heart ailment.  Another man – an important VP – had to take time off to deal with his wife who had cancer.  The owner had to take a lot of time to deal with premature twins.  All of these people required special accomodations, that we made willingly because it was the right thing to do. It’s better for society that you get the training you need to work, as much as you can.  If that means you need a little longer to take tests because of anxiety, then so be it.  The alternative is that they put you in a low level job that really doesn’t suit you, and you will end up more anxious and probably on permanent disability.  Some bp’ers can’t work, but most can, and I strontgly believe that if you have the chance you should work all you can. Work provides structure and emotional rewards and social stability, as well as financial stability. In short (I know, too late <g)… take whatever help you need to get the training you need.  It’s in your best interests, and societies best interests.  And remember – you have been gradually improving since you were diagnosed.  You may not notice it, but as one who has been communicating with you for a while, I can see it.  You’re sharper now than you were 3 months ago, and I’m betting that you will get sharper as you adapt to the limitations of being bipolar and being on meds.  Life isn’t static.  You may not always need the help.  But as long as you do, take it.  Don’t let bipolarity stop you from being all you can be. Diane I am feeling restless and can’t think straight. I am in the middle of making a decision for going back to school. I want to become a Paralegal. Now here is the dilemma. I had some Aptitude tests and the result show that yes I work accurate but because of the time factor I didn’t finished to many questions. I blanked out and couldn’t even do a simple multiplication as 6 times 4. As time got shorter I started panicking more and more until I simply run out of time, therefore the test results are lousy. According to the tests result my English is like a grade 8 student and my math skills are even worse.  I don’t understand that and asked my instructor how I could have graduated from college as the best in my class with Scholar  if my English is that bad. He than said that one of the problems is my memory problem ( I had to read some paragraphs several time) and my continue checking over to make sure I did it right and of course the time factor worked in my disadvantage. He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I would like to know what you guys/girls think about that. I would appreciate any advice, experiences or opinion. thanks HappyPolarBear

Response:

Hi Carmen- In the USA, if you have a 4 yr degree, they usually won’t let you into any special programs, because you are already highly trained.  So, you have an opportunity that many people don’t get. There are many ways they can give you more time on tests–ask what the procedure is.   One of the ways we (USA) do it in special education in public schools is for everyone to take the test.  When the teacher says time is up, you stop with everyone else while the tests are collected and everyone leaves, except those who get more time.  Those like you will be allowed to finish the test without all the classmates being around.  Sometimes this is a problem for the student, as the test is interrupted and the test "mood" is gone.  You have to tell them, if this is so. Sometimes, you take it after class. HTH, Nancy permanently into the ether: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -thanks Heather, I am in Canada but I think we have the same rules. How can I get extra time on tests and other assistance without other students noticing. I never was  someone who want a special treatment but then I have changed and having concentration problems doesn’t make things easier for me, maybe I will have to asked for that extra help. Carmen He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I don’t know what country you are in, but I do know that in the United States, even a learning disability like dyslexia requires that students have special needs, such as longer time on tests.  By law, they CAN NOT disclose what your "disability" is, and those records are kept confidential and locked away where only a select few can see them. Basically, no one except for a couple of people will know you are mentally ill.  Everyone else will think that you have a learning disability, something rather common in the United States.

Response:

HBP, Have you considered that part of the problem could be your brain adjusting to not having nicotine? This last week, since I stepped down on the patch, my brain fog has been much worse! We tend to forget that nicotine is a drug. Part of it could be the meds plus the loss of nicotine… either way it is something that will improve. The most important thing is doing what *you* want. If you can get some help then you should take it and use it. You shouldn’t feel bad about asking for help! You aren’t taking advantage or asking for something that you don’t need. Think of it as doing something to help assure that you accomplish your dream. Rebecca – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Your tests sounds similar to what I had. One full week of testing and it was so exhausting. On my last test I didn’t even care anymore, I just marked of anything. Overmedication? No I don’t think so. I am finally stable. I think some of the memory problem is caused by meds maybe Lithium or Seroquel but I think this side effect is worth it as I hardly feel the irritation I had before and was unable to function. Now I function properly can even spent the whole day in a class where we learn how to write resumes. Is tierening and I have some problems to concentrate but I can do it. So I am hoping that I get my course approved and I can study to become my dream job as a Paralegal. HappyPolarBear

Response:

I guess I will have to put pride aside if I want to become a Paralegal. I will have to go back to school for a full year. So if the price is to acknowledge that I am mentally ill, then so be it. I guess pride is on the wrong place. If I am too proud now and fail later I may regret it. Thanks for pointing that out. — HappyPolarBear

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are what you are. Bipolar is a recognized disability. Put pride or ego aside and try it to see if it can make a positive difference in the outcome of the testing. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Response:

Your tests sounds similar to what I had. One full week of testing and it was so exhausting. On my last test I didn’t even care anymore, I just marked of anything. Overmedication? No I don’t think so. I am finally stable. I think some of the memory problem is caused by meds maybe Lithium or Seroquel but I think this side effect is worth it as I hardly feel the irritation I had before and was unable to function. Now I function properly can even spent the whole day in a class where we learn how to write resumes. Is tierening and I have some problems to concentrate but I can do it. So I am hoping that I get my course approved and I can study to become my dream job as a Paralegal. HappyPolarBear

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now here is the dilemma. I had some Aptitude tests and the result show that yes I work accurate but because of the time factor I didn’t finished to many questions. I blanked out and couldn’t even do a simple multiplication as 6 times 4. As time got shorter I started panicking more and more until I simply run out of time, therefore the test results are lousy. According to the tests result my English is like a grade 8 student and my math skills are even worse.  I don’t understand that and asked my instructor how I could have graduated from college as the best in my class with Scholar  if my English is that bad. He than said that one of the problems is my memory problem ( I had to read some paragraphs several time) and my continue checking over to make sure I did it right and of course the time factor worked in my disadvantage. thanks HappyPolarBear HPB: I, too, have a Masters Degree from a highly selective school, and yet, early in this 4 1/2 year disabiltiy adventure I was turned down for Voc. Rehab because I was determined to be too disabled to be able to take advantage of their program. They sent me to a 40 hour 1 week program at a profession evaluation center where I took nothing but tests, tests, tests.  I think my verbal was rated at the 12 grade level, which may have been as high has their ratings went, but my math was reported at the 8th grade or less level, despite the fact that’ I’d bumbled through calculus in college. I could barely do simple math.  When it came to the Manual Dexterity tests, I did so poorly on the first four tests, one of which invlvolved producing a woven leather belt, that I threw a tantrum and told them  that I would cheerfully accept a zero in this section but would absolutely not subject myself to more testing in this area.  (I was carrying a Vennetta Bottega woven leather purse which I’d had been easily able to afford while working most of my adult life before becoming disabled with BP……like I was just dying to get a job in a leather working factory!) A large part of the problem was the fact that I was not on a mood stablizer and was doped to the gills on Exxeffor (300 mg per day) which resulted in hand tremors so bad that my bank called to see if someone had forged my name on at $15.60 check to the Pizza Hut, where I’ve been a longtime frequent check writing  customer. I I was so doped up that I’d stay home for 4 or 5 days rather than venturing 2 blocks to rhe convenience store to buy cigarrettes.  Complete nicotine withdrawl, feeding Stoffers to my pets rather going to the grocery to buy dog food at least twice a month was just no big deal.  Yeah, I should have just quit smoking then…very easily, but didn’t.  don’t know why. Often…10 times a day, I’d go into a room, trying to find  something and couldn’t quite remember what I was looking for. Any possibility that you are over medicated with something that disagrees with you?  When I switched p-docs and got on the right combo of meds these problems disapated dramatically and significantly. As you can see….BTDT and completly relate to what you’re going through! BTW:  They weren’t able to detect, or at least didn’t mention,  the lifetime slight dyslexia that is no secret to anyone who’s read me on news groups. Charming! Maggie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am feeling restless and can’t think straight. I am in the middle of making a decision for going back to school. I want to become a Paralegal. Now here is the dilemma. I had some Aptitude tests and the result show that yes I work accurate but because of the time factor I didn’t finished to many questions. I blanked out and couldn’t even do a simple multiplication as 6 times 4. As time got shorter I started panicking more and more until I simply run out of time, therefore the test results are lousy. According to the tests result my English is like a grade 8 student and my math skills are even worse.  I don’t understand that and asked my instructor how I could have graduated from college as the best in my class with Scholar  if my English is that bad. He than said that one of the problems is my memory problem ( I had to read some paragraphs several time) and my continue checking over to make sure I did it right and of course the time factor worked in my disadvantage. He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special  needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I would like to know what you guys/girls think about that. I would appreciate any advice, experiences or opinion.

Perfectly grammatical English. You obviously don’t have a problem with English. Can you use a calculator? I don’t see a problem with maths for law. What the tests are designed to do is to weed out people from the lower social classes, who tend not to have had particularly good schooling. However they are also catching you, since they cannot distinguish problems in concentration from low social class. Since it is a school and not a job personally I wouldn’t have a problem about being totally upfront about my bipolar. I ticked the box for "mental health problem" at Leeds. So far it has only had an effect once, maybe. On a field course I was getting stressed about the amount of work we had to do. Some of the tasks were timewasters because some people were working on bats, which are active only at night, so had nothing to do during the day, so they gave us all some tasks involving identifying plants and the like to keep them busy. I was told I needn’t do those, which meant I could devote full time to my main project.

Response:

thanks Colleen, I agree the first step is fully to accept that being Bipolar is now part of me. And knowing that I will have it for the rest of my life I will have to work with it not against it. I will have to learn not to be ashamed of it. I can’t run away from it neither can I hide from it. It is there and always will be. — HappyPolarBear

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was in college (graduated ‘98 so it’s recent) I was the VP of the Disabled Advocates group.  We made sure students had the allowances they needed for their individual problems.  There is nothing wrong with needing allowances to complete your studies.  You truly need them.  I agree with Lindy.  You need to learn to accept that you have bipolar.  You don’t need to identify yourself by it but it is a part of you.  It doesn’t make you less or more intelligent.  It doesn’t make you a criminal, unless you choose to be, and it isn’t your fault.  It’s a medical condition.  If you had limited vision would you not seek the help you need?  What you experience is not different. IMO take the help and then use you education to the best of your advantage. c I am feeling restless and can’t think straight. I am in the middle of making a decision for going back to school. I want to become a Paralegal. Now here is the dilemma. I had some Aptitude tests and the result show that yes I work accurate but because of the time factor I didn’t finished to many questions. I blanked out and couldn’t even do a simple multiplication as 6 times 4. As time got shorter I started panicking more and more until I simply run out of time, therefore the test results are lousy. According to the tests result my English is like a grade 8 student and my math skills are even worse.  I don’t understand that and asked my instructor how I could have graduated from college as the best in my class with Scholar  if my English is that bad. He than said that one of the problems is my memory problem ( I had to read some paragraphs several time) and my continue checking over to make sure I did it right and of course the time factor worked in my disadvantage. He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I would like to know what you guys/girls think about that. I would appreciate any advice, experiences or opinion. thanks HappyPolarBear

Response:

thanks Malcolm, that sounds encouraging. Maybe I am lucky too and get a good school, I am convinced with a little bit of extra help I can do the schooling again. — HappyPolarBear

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am feeling restless and can’t think straight. I am in the middle of making a decision for going back to school. I want to become a Paralegal. Now here is the dilemma. I had some Aptitude tests and the result show that yes I work accurate but because of the time factor I didn’t finished to many questions. I blanked out and couldn’t even do a simple multiplication as 6 times 4. As time got shorter I started panicking more and more until I simply run out of time, therefore the test results are lousy. According to the tests result my English is like a grade 8 student and my math skills are even worse.  I don’t understand that and asked my instructor how I could have graduated from college as the best in my class with Scholar  if my English is that bad. He than said that one of the problems is my memory problem ( I had to read some paragraphs several time) and my continue checking over to make sure I did it right and of course the time factor worked in my disadvantage. He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special  needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I would like to know what you guys/girls think about that. I would appreciate any advice, experiences or opinion. Perfectly grammatical English. You obviously don’t have a problem with English. Can you use a calculator? I don’t see a problem with maths for law. What the tests are designed to do is to weed out people from the lower social classes, who tend not to have had particularly good schooling. However they are also catching you, since they cannot distinguish problems in concentration from low social class. Since it is a school and not a job personally I wouldn’t have a problem about being totally upfront about my bipolar. I ticked the box for "mental health problem" at Leeds. So far it has only had an effect once, maybe. On a field course I was getting stressed about the amount of work we had to do. Some of the tasks were timewasters because some people were working on bats, which are active only at night, so had nothing to do during the day, so they gave us all some tasks involving identifying plants and the like to keep them busy. I was told I needn’t do those, which meant I could devote full time to my main project.

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thanks Heather, I am in Canada but I think we have the same rules. How can I get extra time on tests and other assistance without other students noticing. I never was  someone who want a special treatment but then I have changed and having concentration problems doesn’t make things easier for me, maybe I will have to asked for that extra help. Carmen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I don’t know what country you are in, but I do know that in the United States, even a learning disability like dyslexia requires that students have special needs, such as longer time on tests.  By law, they CAN NOT disclose what your "disability" is, and those records are kept confidential and locked away where only a select few can see them. Basically, no one except for a couple of people will know you are mentally ill.  Everyone else will think that you have a learning disability, something rather common in the United States.

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Now here is the dilemma. I had some Aptitude tests and the result show that yes I work accurate but because of the time factor I didn’t finished to many questions. I blanked out and couldn’t even do a simple multiplication as 6 times 4. As time got shorter I started panicking more and more until I simply run out of time, therefore the test results are lousy. According to the tests result my English is like a grade 8 student and my math skills are even worse.  I don’t understand that and asked my instructor how I could have graduated from college as the best in my class with Scholar  if my English is that bad. He than said that one of the problems is my memory problem ( I had to read some paragraphs several time) and my continue checking over to make sure I did it right and of course the time factor worked in my disadvantage. thanks HappyPolarBear

HPB: I, too, have a Masters Degree from a highly selective school, and yet, early in this 4 1/2 year disabiltiy adventure I was turned down for Voc. Rehab because I was determined to be too disabled to be able to take advantage of their program. They sent me to a 40 hour 1 week program at a profession evaluation center where I took nothing but tests, tests, tests.  I think my verbal was rated at the 12 grade level, which may have been as high has their ratings went, but my math was reported at the 8th grade or less level, despite the fact that’ I’d bumbled through calculus in college. I could barely do simple math.  When it came to the Manual Dexterity tests, I did so poorly on the first four tests, one of which invlvolved producing a woven leather belt, that I threw a tantrum and told them  that I would cheerfully accept a zero in this section but would absolutely not subject myself to more testing in this area.  (I was carrying a Vennetta Bottega woven leather purse which I’d had been easily able to afford while working most of my adult life before becoming disabled with BP……like I was just dying to get a job in a leather working factory!) A large part of the problem was the fact that I was not on a mood stablizer and was doped to the gills on Exxeffor (300 mg per day) which resulted in hand tremors so bad that my bank called to see if someone had forged my name on at $15.60 check to the Pizza Hut, where I’ve been a longtime frequent check writing  customer. I I was so doped up that I’d stay home for 4 or 5 days rather than venturing 2 blocks to rhe convenience store to buy cigarrettes.  Complete nicotine withdrawl, feeding Stoffers to my pets rather going to the grocery to buy dog food at least twice a month was just no big deal.  Yeah, I should have just quit smoking then…very easily, but didn’t.  don’t know why. Often…10 times a day, I’d go into a room, trying to find  something and couldn’t quite remember what I was looking for. Any possibility that you are over medicated with something that disagrees with you?   When I switched p-docs and got on the right combo of meds these problems disapated dramatically and significantly. As you can see….BTDT and completly relate to what you’re going through! BTW:  They weren’t able to detect, or at least didn’t mention,  the lifetime slight dyslexia that is no secret to anyone who’s read me on news groups. Charming! Maggie

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You are what you are. Bipolar is a recognized disability. Put pride or ego aside and try it to see if it can make a positive difference in the outcome of the testing. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

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Sometimes you write things that literally make me flash back to when I was first diagnosed.  I remember the first months, thinking "I can’t be mentally ill".  I bought societies image of mentally ill people – the image of people with hollow eyes, and a crazed look, often living on the streets because they couldn’t function as full members of society.  I wasn’t like that. Eventually, my mental image of "mentally ill" changed to encompass people who have managable conditions, who need to adapt their lifestyle to cope.  I think that you are thinking the same way about "disabled" as I was about "mentally ill". A lot of people need special adaptations to cope with life.  The most obvious ones are the blind and deaf.  But a lot of peple have disabilities that are subtler, and need a bit of help in order to be able to live full lives and contribute to society.   Do you read "For Better Or For Worse"? Yes, the comic strip.  This weeks series talked about a girl who needed help in school because she couldn’t recognize the written word – she had to tape everything and have a special assistant.  Should she simply have to give up school, because her disability is not common, and not visible? Of course not.  It isn’t good for her, and it isn’t good for society.  Even non-disabled people sometimes need special accommodations:  I have two co-workers who have had to take a lot of time off work, one because of problems with menopause and the other because of some mysterious heart ailment.  Another man – an important VP – had to take time off to deal with his wife who had cancer.  The owner had to take a lot of time to deal with premature twins.  All of these people required special accomodations, that we made willingly because it was the right thing to do. It’s better for society that you get the training you need to work, as much as you can.  If that means you need a little longer to take tests because of anxiety, then so be it.  The alternative is that they put you in a low level job that really doesn’t suit you, and you will end up more anxious and probably on permanent disability.  Some bp’ers can’t work, but most can, and I strontgly believe that if you have the chance you should work all you can. Work provides structure and emotional rewards and social stability, as well as financial stability. In short (I know, too late <g)… take whatever help you need to get the training you need.  It’s in your best interests, and societies best interests.  And remember – you have been gradually improving since you were diagnosed.  You may not notice it, but as one who has been communicating with you for a while, I can see it.  You’re sharper now than you were 3 months ago, and I’m betting that you will get sharper as you adapt to the limitations of being bipolar and being on meds.  Life isn’t static.  You may not always need the help.  But as long as you do, take it.  Don’t let bipolarity stop you from being all you can be. Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am feeling restless and can’t think straight. I am in the middle of making a decision for going back to school. I want to become a Paralegal. Now here is the dilemma. I had some Aptitude tests and the result show that yes I work accurate but because of the time factor I didn’t finished to many questions. I blanked out and couldn’t even do a simple multiplication as 6 times 4. As time got shorter I started panicking more and more until I simply run out of time, therefore the test results are lousy. According to the tests result my English is like a grade 8 student and my math skills are even worse.  I don’t understand that and asked my instructor how I could have graduated from college as the best in my class with Scholar  if my English is that bad. He than said that one of the problems is my memory problem ( I had to read some paragraphs several time) and my continue checking over to make sure I did it right and of course the time factor worked in my disadvantage. He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I would like to know what you guys/girls think about that. I would appreciate any advice, experiences or opinion. thanks HappyPolarBear

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When I was in college (graduated ‘98 so it’s recent) I was the VP of the Disabled Advocates group.  We made sure students had the allowances they needed for their individual problems.  There is nothing wrong with needing allowances to complete your studies.  You truly need them.  I agree with Lindy.  You need to learn to accept that you have bipolar.  You don’t need to identify yourself by it but it is a part of you.  It doesn’t make you less or more intelligent.  It doesn’t make you a criminal, unless you choose to be, and it isn’t your fault.  It’s a medical condition.  If you had limited vision would you not seek the help you need?  What you experience is not different. IMO take the help and then use you education to the best of your advantage. c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am feeling restless and can’t think straight. I am in the middle of making a decision for going back to school. I want to become a Paralegal. Now here is the dilemma. I had some Aptitude tests and the result show that yes I work accurate but because of the time factor I didn’t finished to many questions. I blanked out and couldn’t even do a simple multiplication as 6 times 4. As time got shorter I started panicking more and more until I simply run out of time, therefore the test results are lousy. According to the tests result my English is like a grade 8 student and my math skills are even worse.  I don’t understand that and asked my instructor how I could have graduated from college as the best in my class with Scholar  if my English is that bad. He than said that one of the problems is my memory problem ( I had to read some paragraphs several time) and my continue checking over to make sure I did it right and of course the time factor worked in my disadvantage. He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I would like to know what you guys/girls think about that. I would appreciate any advice, experiences or opinion. thanks HappyPolarBear

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I would ask for the help.  Until you own your condition you will never be able to deal with it…jmo.

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He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled.

I don’t know what country you are in, but I do know that in the United States, even a learning disability like dyslexia requires that students have special needs, such as longer time on tests.  By law, they CAN NOT disclose what your "disability" is, and those records are kept confidential and locked away where only a select few can see them.   Basically, no one except for a couple of people will know you are mentally ill.  Everyone else will think that you have a learning disability, something rather common in the United States.

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I am feeling restless and can’t think straight. I am in the middle of making a decision for going back to school. I want to become a Paralegal. Now here is the dilemma. I had some Aptitude tests and the result show that yes I work accurate but because of the time factor I didn’t finished to many questions. I blanked out and couldn’t even do a simple multiplication as 6 times 4. As time got shorter I started panicking more and more until I simply run out of time, therefore the test results are lousy. According to the tests result my English is like a grade 8 student and my math skills are even worse.  I don’t understand that and asked my instructor how I could have graduated from college as the best in my class with Scholar  if my English is that bad. He than said that one of the problems is my memory problem ( I had to read some paragraphs several time) and my continue checking over to make sure I did it right and of course the time factor worked in my disadvantage. He recommended and also people from my support group too to apply at the school for disability arrangements. I have a problem with that. I already have a very hard time to even accept and acknowledge that I am bipolar. Now am I supposed to go to the school assessment center and asked for special needs help e.g. longer time on tests…meaning openly admit that I am mentally ill. I am not disabled. I would like to know what you guys/girls think about that. I would appreciate any advice, experiences or opinion. thanks HappyPolarBear

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Question:

On Tue, 25 May 2004 , In message What, in ordinary life, is she unable to do as a result of colour blindness?

Agree with me that what she called her green coat was in fact mustard coloured? — ^Thunder^ –

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People with minor ailments like that who throw their legs in the air screaming "don’t be nasty to me I’m disabled" are pathetic, parasitic losers who deserve to be treated with contempt. Maybe, but that does not mean that they are not disabled. "Minor ailments" < "disability"

THat’s my point.  Sometimes "Minor ailments" = disability, if only in paperwork and not in the mind of the, er, afflicted. Let’s talk about thumbs if you want to get to the nitty gritty. How much thumb would someone have to lose before you’d count them as disabled? What happens if they have a whole thumb but little use of it?

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On Tue, 25 May 2004 , In message On Tue, 25 May 2004 , In message What, in ordinary life, is she unable to do as a result of colour blindness? Agree with me that what she called her green coat was in fact mustard coloured? <grin  What colour was it?

Yellow Funnily enough on that subject, I understand that generally colour blindness is passed through the male line. Her father was completely colour blind but she just had problems with certain colours. Led to interesting rows when we were discussing for instance what paint to buy when we were re-decorating. She once brought home these colour blind test charts where, for instance, a colour blind person saw different images to those not colour blind – by squinting my eyes I _could_ see how she could mistake a certain row of dots for a different image (but then on one of my school reports my art master had said that I had a sense of colour well above the average) — ^Thunder^ –

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I bet you do not know what dyslexia is. If you’re unsure, then Google is your friend.

I know.  UK national expert, Dr McLaughlin told me, and I have checked his facts.  You may see David McLaughlin Ph.D. on TV in big cases. DYOR.

To find a site that knows less than I, and gets it wrong?  The top unpaid site heads with "The Gift of Dyslexia" – Dyslexia’s not an advantage for God’s bloody sake.  That’s a lie. It is notable however, how few of the sites use the phrase "disability" to describe the condition.

I’m not surprised.  What is a disappointment, however, typical of the British if not mankind, is the proportion of people who make pronouncements about things like dyslexia, without knowing what they are.  UK psychiatrists seem to be doing that with hyperactivity (does not, and never did, mean very active). As for your argument, you *have a case;* but the British make it worse.   When you start making minor neurological brain malfunctions, such as dyslexia, as common in females as males; or mental illness as common in men as women; as the British do, you devalue the meaning of these terms. You said some milk their dyslexia.  When the BBC’s blind correspondent, Peter White, asked blind listeners to say if they had ever "used" the fact that they are blind, the response was stupid question.  Be realistic – if people are disabled, the British are far too mean to make up for it. When you have noted that I say you have a case, may I again ask you to define Dyslexia? — http://www.tom-moore.com http://www.tom-moore.com/exten2/docs/ccf/index.html

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I again ask you to define Dyslexia?

Why you need my definition when there’s a perfectly good one at the Dyslexia Institute is beyond me, but since their site says "Dyslexia is now firmly established as a congenital and developmental condition. Its cause has not been fully confirmed but the effect is to create neurological anomalies in the brain. These anomalies bring about varying degrees of difficulty in learning when using words, and sometimes symbols." that’s good enough for me. Like I said, if you need more, go look it up. Their definition is good enough for me. But you’re missing the point. Dyslexia, irrespective of the vociferous nature of its supporters, or its legal status, is not by any sensible definition of the word, a disability. *That* is my point. Paul. — . A .sig is all well and good, but it’s no substitute for a personality . JMS: "SFX is a fairly useless publication on just about every imaginable front.   Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so little, with so much, for so long." . EMail: Unless invited to, don’t. Your message is likely to be automatically deleted.

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Huh?  Who said dyslexia doesn’t exist? You’re starting to make it up now!

 You did, without knowing perhaps.  That’s what not pigeon-holing it means. Something like recognising there is a problem, but treating the person as an individual, rather than an illness.  Do that with cancer, and the patient dies. You should pigeon-hole dyslexia:  say what it is, (and what it is not – everything else). Now you say I cannot.  One web page I found has an accurate definition of dyslexia.  Took time, but I got there. Which has nothing whatsoever to do with pigeon-holing anything.

That’s exactly what pigeon-holing is:  setting its limits.  What’s really annoying about the definition you were given, is it is not pigeon-holed, and therefore includes just about every problem with learning. Presumably, these people think that when one stops learning, the dyslexia stops.  Of course not, but it follows from what they say. I suggest you lose the white heat of righteous indignation and calm down a bit. Your reasoning is slipping badly.

1.  righteous indignation – guilty. 2.  calm down – no need. If you ever do get through the BS, and understand what dyslexia really is, it is unlikely to alter your conclusion, which I think is roughly that "dyslexia cannot, of itself, be called a disability, without devaluing the term disability." — http://www.tom-moore.com http://www.tom-moore.com/exten2/docs/ccf

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People with minor ailments like that who throw their legs in the air screaming "don’t be nasty to me I’m disabled" are pathetic, parasitic losers who deserve to be treated with contempt.

Maybe, but that does not mean that they are not disabled.

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It is notable however, how few of the sites use the phrase "disability" to describe the condition. Your point would be?

He might be desperate – his post gives me that impression – but I am not.   You may dispute, with Demetrius Zeluff and others, whether or not dyslexia is a disability, but I do not think your views are necessarily incompatible with his. In my opinion, since I was not asked, your view is a matter of taste, but it appears to me incomplete.  You have good grounds for dismissing dyslexia as no more of a disability than Tony Blair is a socialist, but is that all that needs to be said on the question of dyslexia and disability? I promise you it is not. — http://www.tom-moore.com http://www.tom-moore.com/exten2/docs/ccf

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On Tue, 25 May 2004 , In message Dyslexia, irrespective of the vociferous nature of its supporters, or its legal status, is not by any sensible definition of the word, a disability. *That* is my point. Paul.

My (ex) wife was (still is) colour blind. I don’t think she ever considers she has a disability although being pedantic I suppose a strict definition of disability is the lack of an ability to do something (whether it is to read words or see colours) as others see them. — ^Thunder^ –

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Demetrius Zeluff  said We all lack the ability to do something. I can’t skateboard, for example. What, in ordinary life, is she unable to do as a result of colour blindness? Get employment in the Electronics industry?

That’s exactly what my husband wished to when he left school, and couldn’t, bing colourblind.  Passed the interview, but failed that test. It certainly affected his life, as he took a somewhat boring office job, till he eventually realised what he’d like to do instead. But the real difference is, he can’t learn to tell red from green, Paul could learn to skateboard.  Badly perhaps. —  kat    ^..^<

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People with minor ailments like that who throw their legs in the air screaming "don’t be nasty to me I’m disabled" are pathetic, parasitic losers who deserve to be treated with contempt. Maybe, but that does not mean that they are not disabled.

"Minor ailments" < "disability" Paul. — . A .sig is all well and good, but it’s no substitute for a personality . JMS: "SFX is a fairly useless publication on just about every imaginable front.   Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so little, with so much, for so long." . EMail: Unless invited to, don’t. Your message is likely to be automatically deleted.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is notable however, how few of the sites use the phrase "disability" to describe the condition. Your point would be? He might be desperate – his post gives me that impression – but I am not.   You may dispute, with Demetrius Zeluff and others, whether or not dyslexia is a disability, but I do not think your views are necessarily incompatible with his. In my opinion, since I was not asked, your view is a matter of taste, but it appears to me incomplete.  You have good grounds for dismissing dyslexia as no more of a disability than Tony Blair is a socialist, but is that all that needs to be said on the question of dyslexia and disability? I promise you it is not.

Nobody, including me, is advocating censoring anything. Paul. — . A .sig is all well and good, but it’s no substitute for a personality . JMS: "SFX is a fairly useless publication on just about every imaginable front.   Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so little, with so much, for so long." . EMail: Unless invited to, don’t. Your message is likely to be automatically deleted.

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On Tue, 25 May 2004 , In message What, in ordinary life, is she unable to do as a result of colour blindness? Agree with me that what she called her green coat was in fact mustard coloured?

<grin  What colour was it? Paul. — . A .sig is all well and good, but it’s no substitute for a personality . JMS: "SFX is a fairly useless publication on just about every imaginable front.   Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so little, with so much, for so long." . EMail: Unless invited to, don’t. Your message is likely to be automatically deleted.

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That many people hate the word disabled. It doesn’t stop it being used inaccurately as a feeble attempt at winning a lost argument either. You do not have a case for saying, as you have, that dyslexia does not mean a lack of ability.  You may think describing dyslexia as a disability is unhelpful – and for that, as I have said, you have a case – but you have none for saying it does not exist.

Huh?  Who said dyslexia doesn’t exist?  You’re starting to make it up now! What word would you use to pigeon hole dyslexia; ’syndrome’, ‘illness’, ‘condition’, ‘retardation’, ? Don’t recall pigeon-holing it anywhere. You told me I could find a definition from Google.

Yes. That does not mean a single word definition, which is what you were asking for above. Again, you’re making it up. Quite the opposite, in fact. Now you say I cannot.  One web page I found has an accurate definition of dyslexia.  Took time, but I got there.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with pigeon-holing anything. I suggest you lose the white heat of righteous indignation and calm down a bit. Your reasoning is slipping badly. Paul. — . A .sig is all well and good, but it’s no substitute for a personality . JMS: "SFX is a fairly useless publication on just about every imaginable front.   Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so little, with so much, for so long." . EMail: Unless invited to, don’t. Your message is likely to be automatically deleted.

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That many people hate the word disabled. It doesn’t stop it being used inaccurately as a feeble attempt at winning a lost argument either.

You do not have a case for saying, as you have, that dyslexia does not mean a lack of ability.  You may think describing dyslexia as a disability is unhelpful – and for that, as I have said, you have a case – but you have none for saying it does not exist. What word would you use to pigeon hole dyslexia; ’syndrome’, ‘illness’, ‘condition’, ‘retardation’, ? Don’t recall pigeon-holing it anywhere.

You told me I could find a definition from Google. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Now you say I cannot.  One web page I found has an accurate definition of dyslexia.  Took time, but I got there. — http://www.tom-moore.com http://www.tom-moore.com/exten2/docs/ccf

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Demetrius Zeluff  said We all lack the ability to do something. I can’t skateboard, for example. What, in ordinary life, is she unable to do as a result of colour blindness? Get employment in the Electronics industry? That’s exactly what my husband wished to when he left school, and couldn’t, bing colourblind.  Passed the interview, but failed that test. It certainly affected his life, as he took a somewhat boring office job, till he eventually realised what he’d like to do instead.

Curiously; I did get a job in electronics and *desperately* want to get out of it, into a boring office job.  Perhaps I should start applying, eh? My last employers were so clueless that they never thought to ask people if they were colour blind, and the ‘resistor tests’ were all faked, so there were a few colourblind people working there. Everything had a five digit part number.  There were two stores people; one was colourblind, the other was dyslexic. I can feel an alt.sysadmin style rant coming on. But the real difference is, he can’t learn to tell red from green, Paul could learn to skateboard.  Badly perhaps.

This colourblind stores chap had a good guess rate; about 85% accurate, which made him better than most of the shop floor.

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I again ask you to define Dyslexia? Why you need my definition

I’m sure you’re aware that Tom Moore is a fuck headed nong and that nothing useful can be gained from a conversation with him.

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My (ex) wife was (still is) colour blind. I don’t think she ever considers she has a disability although being pedantic I suppose a strict definition of disability is the lack of an ability to do something (whether it is to read words or see colours) as others see them.

We all lack the ability to do something. I can’t skateboard, for example. What, in ordinary life, is she unable to do as a result of colour blindness? It’s a question of degree. Dyslexic people have reasoning, memory and reading/comprehension difficulties. Partially deaf people (like me) have difficulty hearing and comprehending. Partially sighted people have difficulty seeing, especially at low light levels. And so on. None of the above are disabled. With a willingness to do something about it and a little help people like that/us lead normal, or very close to normal lives. People with minor ailments like that who throw their legs in the air screaming "don’t be nasty to me I’m disabled" are pathetic, parasitic losers who deserve to be treated with contempt. Paul. — . A .sig is all well and good, but it’s no substitute for a personality . JMS: "SFX is a fairly useless publication on just about every imaginable front.   Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so little, with so much, for so long." . EMail: Unless invited to, don’t. Your message is likely to be automatically deleted.

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Demetrius Zeluff  said Get employment in the Electronics industry? That’s exactly what my husband wished to when he left school, and couldn’t, bing colourblind.  Passed the interview, but failed that test. It certainly affected his life, as he took a somewhat boring office job, till he eventually realised what he’d like to do instead. Curiously; I did get a job in electronics and *desperately* want to get out of it, into a boring office job.  Perhaps I should start applying, eh?

It’s a long time since he had that, he became a computer operator and now he’s an IT contractor who, if he had his time again, reckons he’d choose to be a plumber. My last employers were so clueless that they never thought to ask people if they were colour blind, and the ‘resistor tests’ were all faked, so there were a few colourblind people working there. Everything had a five digit part number.  There were two stores people; one was colourblind, the other was dyslexic. I can feel an alt.sysadmin style rant coming on. But the real difference is, he can’t learn to tell red from green, Paul could learn to skateboard.  Badly perhaps. This colourblind stores chap had a good guess rate; about 85% accurate, which made him better than most of the shop floor.

Stores is one thing, my husband wanted to be an engineer. —  kat    ^..^<

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Your point would be? That many people hate the word disabled.

Yes, especially government, especially British governments.  Disability means they have an obligation to spend money to help the disabled. One way to get around this is to ignore it, or pretend it does not exist, like the British and hyperactivity (something UK medical scientists never said). Another, like the British and mental illness, is to exaggerate its occurrence, so that 1:4 of the UK population are supposed to be mentally ill.  That way we simply cannot afford to pay for the treatment of 15 million people, can we? What word would you use to pigeon hole dyslexia; ’syndrome’, ‘illness’, ‘condition’, ‘retardation’, ?

Syndrome is worse, although the term means the degree to which it places its dis-at-ease varies.  Syndrome kind of sounds like doesn’t really exist, or is an excuse, but most diseases are syndromes. I would prefer to identify the cause of your dyslexia, and call it that. — http://www.tom-moore.com http://www.tom-moore.com/exten2/docs/ccf

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If you look up "disability" in, for example, Merriam Websters dictionary, you’ll find, under the sub-reference marked "learning disability"  the following "any of various conditions (as dyslexia) that interfere with an individual’s ability to learn and so result in impaired functioning in language, reasoning, or academic skills and that are thought to be caused by difficulties in processing and integrating information"

Someone thinks a "learning disability" needs to be defined, beyond something like a disablement of learning function?  Learning Disability is IQ < 70. "Something that hinders or incapacitates"

Indeed, but as Paul Harper will doubtless remind us, a long bus journey to school, hinders learning:  you don’t call that a disability, although in the strict sense, I suppose it is. So it seems that there *are* plenty of sensible definitions of the word "disability" that encompass dyslexia

There are, I agree, but I don’t see a sensible definition of dyslexia.  All we’ve been told is that it is difficulties learning when using words and/or difficulties learning when using symbols.  I suppose difficulties leaning with music is excluded, but it does seem to include a lot. Use those definitions, and Paul is right:  it does not set us apart. — http://www.tom-moore.com http://www.tom-moore.com/exten2/docs/ccf

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My (ex) wife was (still is) colour blind. I don’t think she ever considers she has a disability although being pedantic I suppose a strict definition of disability is the lack of an ability to do something (whether it is to read words or see colours) as others see them. We all lack the ability to do something. I can’t skateboard, for example. What, in ordinary life, is she unable to do as a result of colour blindness?

Get employment in the Electronics industry?

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What word would you use to pigeon hole dyslexia; ’syndrome’, ‘illness’, ‘condition’, ‘retardation’, ? Syndrome is worse, although the term means the degree to which it places its dis-at-ease varies.  Syndrome kind of sounds like doesn’t really exist, or is an excuse, but most diseases are syndromes.

A disease is called a syndrome until its cause is found. Until then it’s just a collection of symptoms that may or may not have a common cause.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I again ask you to define Dyslexia? Why you need my definition when there’s a perfectly good one at the Dyslexia Institute is beyond me, but since their site says "Dyslexia is now firmly established as a congenital and developmental condition. Its cause has not been fully confirmed but the effect is to create neurological anomalies in the brain. These anomalies bring about varying degrees of difficulty in learning when using words, and sometimes symbols." that’s good enough for me. Like I said, if you need more, go look it up. Their definition is good enough for me. But you’re missing the point. Dyslexia, irrespective of the vociferous nature of its supporters, or its legal status, is not by any sensible definition of the word, a disability. *That* is my point.

If you look up "disability" in, for example, Merriam Websters dictionary, you’ll find, under the sub-reference marked "learning disability"  the following "any of various conditions (as dyslexia) that interfere with an individual’s ability to learn and so result in impaired functioning in language, reasoning, or academic skills and that are thought to be caused by difficulties in processing and integrating information" The Cambridge International Dictionary gives, under disability "an illness, injury or condition that makes it difficult for someone to do the things that other people do" which is almost identical to the terms used by the Dyslexia Institute The American Heritage  Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition defines "disability" as "disadvantage or deficiency, especially a physical or mental impairment that interferes with or prevents normal achievement in a particular area." "Something that hinders or incapacitates" both of which are entirely consistent with the definition of dyslexia you posted from the Dyslexia Institute etc etc etc So it seems that there *are* plenty of sensible definitions of the word "disability" that encompass dyslexia Brian

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Why you need my definition when there’s a perfectly good one at the Dyslexia Institute is beyond me, [ . . . ].

There are so many different, and so many wrong, understandings of dyslexia, like paranoia, hyperactivity and nervous breakdown, that one’s use of the term does convey to your audience the nature of the disorder to which you refer, when you say dyslexia.  Yet dyslexia, like paranoia, can be easily defined. [ One of the others is more difficult, but a definition is possible, the other does not exist. ] [ . . . ] "Dyslexia is now firmly established as a congenital and developmental condition.

That’s not what it is, that’s a proposition of its class, and wrong (or incomplete anyway). Its cause has not been fully confirmed but the effect is to create neurological anomalies in the brain.

That’s not what it is, that’s one its causes, although someone seems to be trying to tell that only "neurological anomalies in the brain" lead to dyslexia.  That’s not true. These anomalies bring about varying degrees of difficulty in learning when using words, and sometimes symbols."

Dyslexia, you’ve been led to believe, is a difficulty in learning when using words, and symbols? that’s good enough for me.

Well, you’re easily pleased then. Further, and importantly, if you believe that, then I do not see how any reasonable person could conclude much other than either (a) the definition supplied is unhelpful; or (b) dyslexia is not a disability. Another case of garbage in – garbage out.  In Einstein’s only source material was garbage, rather than Newton and Leibniz, his would have been much nearer to garbage. Like I said, if you need more, go look it up.

More bull shit?  More waffle?  No thank you. Dyslexia, irrespective of the vociferous nature of its supporters, or its legal status, is not by any sensible definition of the word, a disability. *That* is my point.

And if that’s your premise, your conclusion follows, and does so without a great deal of thought. — http://www.tom-moore.com http://www.tom-moore.com/exten2/docs/ccf

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically. <snip Last night after having the job yanked from under my nose, the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell. Brandy sat on me and purred like a little diesel engine. Stosh lay by my feet, and Roxie and Odessa kept coming to look in on me. I thank God for them. They’re not capable of the bullshit that human beings heap upon one another. Blessed be, Baha Three thousand years ago, cats were deified in ancient Egypt. To this day, they have not forgotten.

I’m so sorry to read about your problems. Sadly identity theft is getting more common. Purrs that your life gets better very soon. — Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera) A house is not a home, without a cat.

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I’m so sorry to hear you had such a bad week. We are thinking of you, sending lots of purrs and hugs just for you, plus best wishes for things to start getting much better right away, — Polonca & Soncek

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically. We discovered last week that some filthbag had stolen our debit card numbers and started hosing both our accounts. It’s been a fiasco. <snip

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Sorry for not quoting. Of course you can rant. Having you card numbers stolen sux. As far as being fired due to disability. That is illegal! Under the American’s with Disability Act of 1990, they are obligated to accomodate you. Find out where your nearest Center For Independent Living they can make suggestions on what to do. Suz

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MOre inserted. — Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus      www.lds.org      www.mormons.com

I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically. CY: Sorry to hear that. We discovered last week that some filthbag had stolen our debit card numbers and started hosing both our accounts. It’s been a fiasco. CY: I can imagine that makes life dificult. Can’t do much without money. We’ve had to shut down every scrap of plastic in the house, spend hours on the phone with the credit bureaus to flag us (because the money has been going to an overseas company that presses shady credit cards for any fool desperate enough to pay the activation fee) CY: Well, gee, spend someone else’s stolen money to get another card? Sounds like someething crooks would do. and with our banks, not to mention the local police and FBI. In short, my identity is floating around out there somewhere, CY: That’s no good. YOu feeling disembodied? and some five-hundred pound, unwashed man is calling himself Elizabeth and ordering foreign porn featuring teenagers. CY: You always were good with mental imaging. I am getting visions of the 500 pound man…. The cards will be replaced with new numbers, but that will take a bit of time, and for the moment just going to the store is a nightmare. We went to get groceries Saturday night and it took almost an hour to get approved to cash a check. I remember when you could write one right at the counter, no problem. Now? 17 forms of ID, a police check, character references from your great-aunt in Boise, a letter from your priest-rabbi-imam-highpriestessofDiana. CY: And a shoppers card? We ended up very late for Joycie’s birthday party (out of nursing home, responding very well to radiation, tumor shrunk, good news in all this mess.) CY: That sounds like progress, to me. Well, for Joycie that is. Sounds like you’re still deep in the mud. On top of this, my work has asked me to get an evaluation for what was thought to be dyslexia. I’d been having trouble following certain instructions, getting all bollixed up when I had to do a multistep task for a customer’s account. It’s not dyslexia. I’ve had ADHD all this time, and on top of it I’ve just learned that I have a learning disability known as cognitive memory dysfunction. The sympoms tend to overlap with those of dyslexia. CY: Wow, and it went undiagnosed all this time? The bank is ready to toss me out on my @r$e. I’ve been put on Strattera as a trial for the ADHD, but little can be done about the other stuff. I’ve just lost an opportunity to advance because of this damnable thing, which has been disclosed to the company, the schmucks. CY: Oh, those wonderful disclosure statements? I’m thinking of giving them a bill. Even with the insurance, my money would be beter spent on catnip for the babies and a nice, expensive lipstick for their hardworking mama. My psychiatrist is having kittens himself. My bipolar/OCD is a bastard to treat as it is, and throwing ADHD in the mix is a recipe for disaster. He and I are both concerned about me remaining employable. Now more than ever. CY: Wow, might have to figure otu something creative? Want some ideas? Last night after having the job yanked from under my nose, the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell. Brandy sat on me and purred like a little diesel engine. Stosh lay by my feet, and Roxie and Odessa kept coming to look in on me. I thank God for them. They’re not capable of the bullshit that human beings heap upon one another. CY: KNow that feeling! Blessed be, Baha — Three thousand years ago, cats were deified in ancient Egypt. To this day, they have not forgotten.

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I go around with my bank on this one every so often.  I have an ATM card.  I do not have and do not want a debit card.  I do not need some schmuck screwing around in my checking account.  Even innocent (maybe) mistakes can be a royal PITA. Problem is, the banks want to go paperless. Some actually charge for using checks now. Their goal is, I believe, to phase out paper in the next 5 years. One of these days there will be no choice.

My parents want their checks back.  Their bank said they would charge them for getting the actual checks.  My dad raised h*** with them about that and he gets his checks.  He doesn’t have a computer so he could only take their word for it on what checks have cleared and what haven’t.  My bank doesn’t give me my checks back anymore and charges me $5 a copy; as a result I rarely write paper checks and do my banking and bill pay online.  But what is a person without a computer to do?!  Dad is 80 years old – he’s not about to figure out how to use a computer. Jill

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically. We discovered last week that some filthbag had stolen our debit card numbers and started hosing both our accounts. It’s been a fiasco. We’ve had to shut down every scrap of plastic in the house, spend hours on the phone with the credit bureaus to flag us (because the money has been going to an overseas company that presses shady credit cards for any fool desperate enough to pay the activation fee) and with our banks, not to mention the local police and FBI. [...] Last night after having the job yanked from under my nose, the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell. Brandy sat on me and purred like a little diesel engine. Stosh lay by my feet, and Roxie and Odessa kept coming to look in on me. I thank God for them. They’re not capable of the bullshit that human beings heap upon one another.

Purrs for a speedy resolution to the identity theft. It’s good that you have your kitties to comfort you.

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I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically.

{{{Baha}}} We’re so very sorry that life is kicking you around right now.  The five furkids are sending purrs and gentle headbutts and I’m sending hugs that things get better soon.  Rant all you want here, we’re always willing to listen and send purrs. Julie, Hobbes, Selena, Lacey, Sam and Barnabus

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… the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell. Brandy sat on me and purred like a little diesel engine. Stosh lay by my feet, and Roxie and Odessa kept coming to look in on me. I thank God for them. They’re not capable of the bullshit that human beings heap upon one another.

Purrs for things to improve.  Kitties always seem to know, don’t they, when we need some ‘up close and personal’ purrs.  Give them all a skritch for me. Regards and Purrs, O J

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[...] Last night after having the job yanked from under my nose, the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell.

[...] That really stinks about the identity theft.  Many purrs also for the rest of your troubles. May it get better soon! — Cheryl

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On top of this, my work has asked me to get an evaluation for what was thought to be dyslexia. I’d been having trouble following certain instructions, getting all bollixed up when I had to do a multistep task for a customer’s account. It’s not dyslexia. I’ve had ADHD all this time, and on top of it I’ve just learned that I have a learning disability known as cognitive memory dysfunction. The sympoms tend to overlap with those of dyslexia. The bank is ready to toss me out on my @r$e. I’ve been put on Strattera as a trial for the ADHD, but little can be done about the other stuff. I’ve just lost an opportunity to advance because of this damnable thing, which has been disclosed to the company, the schmucks. I’m thinking of giving them a bill. Even with the insurance, my money would be beter spent on catnip for the babies and a nice, expensive lipstick for their hardworking mama. My psychiatrist is having kittens himself. My bipolar/OCD is a bastard to treat as it is, and throwing ADHD in the mix is a recipe for disaster. He and I are both concerned about me remaining employable. Now more than ever.

Purrs, sympathy and making it right thoughts and wishes for you and your tribulations.  Mandy also has cognitive memory dysfunction, but it’s easier to explain it to others as visual dyslexia.  It tends to go hand in hand with ADHD and ADD.  Mandy received "speech" therapy for it and can now do as many as three simple demands without losing it. I don’t know about medications for it, I hope yours help you out without messing up your bipolar/OCD treatments as well.  Thanks Bast for cats to soothe the pain away. Pam, Rob, and the Fayetteville Five + Calvin, Sonya, and Speedy the d-thing

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically. On top of this, my work has asked me to get an evaluation for what was thought to be dyslexia. I’d been having trouble following certain instructions, getting all bollixed up when I had to do a multistep task for a customer’s account. It’s not dyslexia. I’ve had ADHD all this time, and on top of it I’ve just learned that I have a learning disability known as cognitive memory dysfunction. The sympoms tend to overlap with those of dyslexia. The bank is ready to toss me out on my @r$e. I’ve been put on Strattera as a trial for the ADHD, but little can be done about the other stuff. I’ve just lost an opportunity to advance because of this damnable thing, which has been disclosed to the company, the schmucks. I’m thinking of giving them a bill. Even with the insurance, my money would be beter spent on catnip for the babies and a nice, expensive lipstick for their hardworking mama. My psychiatrist is having kittens himself. My bipolar/OCD is a bastard to treat as it is, and throwing ADHD in the mix is a recipe for disaster. He and I are both concerned about me remaining employable. Now more than ever. Last night after having the job yanked from under my nose, the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell. Brandy sat on me and purred like a little diesel engine. Stosh lay by my feet, and Roxie and Odessa kept coming to look in on me. I thank God for them. They’re not capable of the bullshit that human beings heap upon one another.

Why is it that even blessings are sometimes delivered with so much excess baggage?  It sounds like being away from that job will be a good thing, other than the loss of income.  And when things are off, a proper diagnosis is truly a blessing.  As for how it was handled, it sure sounds like you should qualify for at least some temporary disability rather than unemployment (the former isn’t taxable) and maybe some compensation for the way it was all processed. I know you don’t know what you are going to do next.  But I’m sure it will be a good thing.  A way to be that you can be at peace with yourself and the world around you. Jo

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I go around with my bank on this one every so often.  I have an ATM card.  I do not have and do not want a debit card.  I do not need some schmuck screwing around in my checking account.  Even innocent (maybe) mistakes can be a royal PITA.

Problem is, the banks want to go paperless. Some actually charge for using checks now. Their goal is, I believe, to phase out paper in the next 5 years. One of these days there will be no choice.

Response:

Hi Baha I’m so sorry about this whole mess. I hope it all gets straightened out soon. I agree w/Jo that you should be able to get Temporary Disability, unless & until your psych. determines that you are unemployable. Then you should be able to get permanent disability. There’s a person at work here who is applying for temp. disability on the basis of mental helth, so why not a diagnosed disability? And I have a friend who is on perm. disability for a mental health diagnosis.

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Hi Baha I’m so sorry about this whole mess. I hope it all gets straightened out soon. I agree w/Jo that you should be able to get Temporary Disability, unless & until your psych. determines that you are unemployable. Then you should be able to get permanent disability. There’s a person at work here who is applying for temp. disability on the basis of mental helth, so why not a diagnosed disability? And I have a friend who is on perm. disability for a mental health diagnosis.

I agree with what you said. Jill

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically. We discovered last week that some filthbag had stolen our debit card numbers and started hosing both our accounts. It’s been a fiasco. We’ve had to shut down every scrap of plastic in the house, spend hours on the phone with the credit bureaus to flag us (because the money has been going to an overseas company that presses shady credit cards for any fool desperate enough to pay the activation fee) and with our banks, not to mention the local police and FBI. In short, my identity is floating around out there somewhere, and some five-hundred pound, unwashed man is calling himself Elizabeth and ordering foreign porn featuring teenagers. The cards will be replaced with new numbers, but that will take a bit of time, and for the moment just going to the store is a nightmare. We went to get groceries Saturday night and it took almost an hour to get approved to cash a check. I remember when you could write one right at the counter, no problem. Now? 17 forms of ID, a police check, character references from your great-aunt in Boise, a letter from your priest-rabbi-imam-highpriestessofDiana. We ended up very late for Joycie’s birthday party (out of nursing home, responding very well to radiation, tumor shrunk, good news in all this mess.) On top of this, my work has asked me to get an evaluation for what was thought to be dyslexia. I’d been having trouble following certain instructions, getting all bollixed up when I had to do a multistep task for a customer’s account. It’s not dyslexia. I’ve had ADHD all this time, and on top of it I’ve just learned that I have a learning disability known as cognitive memory dysfunction. The sympoms tend to overlap with those of dyslexia. The bank is ready to toss me out on my @r$e. I’ve been put on Strattera as a trial for the ADHD, but little can be done about the other stuff. I’ve just lost an opportunity to advance because of this damnable thing, which has been disclosed to the company, the schmucks. I’m thinking of giving them a bill. Even with the insurance, my money would be beter spent on catnip for the babies and a nice, expensive lipstick for their hardworking mama. My psychiatrist is having kittens himself. My bipolar/OCD is a bastard to treat as it is, and throwing ADHD in the mix is a recipe for disaster. He and I are both concerned about me remaining employable. Now more than ever. Last night after having the job yanked from under my nose, the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell. Brandy sat on me and purred like a little diesel engine. Stosh lay by my feet, and Roxie and Odessa kept coming to look in on me. I thank God for them. They’re not capable of the bullshit that human beings heap upon one another. Blessed be, Baha

{{{{Baha}}}}} I am so sorry you are going through all this.  May better times be directly ahead! Ginger-lyn Home Pages:   http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/   http://www.angelfire.com/folk/glsummer (homepage & cats)   http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~summer/index.htm (genealogy)   http://www.i-love-cats.com/meow/glsummer/ (The Violence Against                                              Animals in Movies Website)

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Big Hugs Baha – you sure need them. {{{{HUGS}}}} I’ve lost your email about what we discussed re.AP. Could you send it to me again? Purrs for good things to happen. Helen M

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yodeled: <Big snip Dear Baha, big ol’ purrs to clear away all the BS.   Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com

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On 2005-03-01, Singh penned: I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically.

It sure sounds like it did.  What a nasty time for you. [snip stuff about identity theft] God, I hate that crap!  I’ve had two incidents, one being an eight dollar charge that the company returned when I called and said, "Yo, I didn’t order anything from you" (I suspect they have a list of CCs, charge every one of them $8 and wait to see if anyone notices.)  The second time, I found a $3K charge from Hong Kong and called my credit union immediately.  They locked down the card.  Apparently the first charge was just a test; a few days later the same organization tried to charge me $17K! With all of this, I’m pretty paranoid about my finances.  I check my credit card and bank balance online every few days.  (That’s how I caught the $3K charge before they tried the bigger one.)  My bank also issues Visa check cards by default, and I traded mine in for a pure ATM card.  I figure even if it’s stolen, it can’t be used as a debit or credit card this way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On top of this, my work has asked me to get an evaluation for what was thought to be dyslexia. I’d been having trouble following certain instructions, getting all bollixed up when I had to do a multistep task for a customer’s account. It’s not dyslexia. I’ve had ADHD all this time, and on top of it I’ve just learned that I have a learning disability known as cognitive memory dysfunction. The sympoms tend to overlap with those of dyslexia. The bank is ready to toss me out on my @r$e. I’ve been put on Strattera as a trial for the ADHD, but little can be done about the other stuff. I’ve just lost an opportunity to advance because of this damnable thing, which has been disclosed to the company, the schmucks. I’m thinking of giving them a bill. Even with the insurance, my money would be beter spent on catnip for the babies and a nice, expensive lipstick for their hardworking mama. My psychiatrist is having kittens himself. My bipolar/OCD is a bastard to treat as it is, and throwing ADHD in the mix is a recipe for disaster. He and I are both concerned about me remaining employable. Now more than ever.

I’m confused.  Is it even legal to fire someone or refuse them a promotion based on an illness?  I guess you can’t prove that it’s for that reason. Still, yuck! Last night after having the job yanked from under my nose, the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell. Brandy sat on me and purred like a little diesel engine. Stosh lay by my feet, and Roxie and Odessa kept coming to look in on me. I thank God for them. They’re not capable of the bullshit that human beings heap upon one another.

Good kitties =) — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

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SNIP Last night after having the job yanked from under my nose, the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell. Brandy sat on me and purred like a little diesel engine. Stosh lay by my feet, and Roxie and Odessa kept coming to look in on me. I thank God for them. They’re not capable of the bullshit that human beings heap upon one another. Blessed be, Baha — Three thousand years ago, cats were deified in ancient Egypt. To this day, they have not forgotten.

Big hugs, Singh.  Any one of the things you describe would be enough to ruin anybody’s week all by themselves. But all of them at once…oy!  I hope things look up, soon.   Thank goodness for cats, they’re a great comfort. I’m convinced they do pick up on human emotions, even if they understand the reasons for those feelings.  They just know that Mama needs some comfort and companionship and apply themselves to the task. Melissa

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically. We discovered last week that some filthbag had stolen our debit card numbers and started hosing both our accounts. It’s been a fiasco. We’ve had to shut down every scrap of plastic in the house, spend hours on the phone with the credit bureaus to flag us (because the money has been going to an overseas company that presses shady credit cards for any fool desperate enough to pay the activation fee) and with our banks, not to mention the local police and FBI. In short, my identity is floating around out there somewhere, and some five-hundred pound, unwashed man is calling himself Elizabeth and ordering foreign porn featuring teenagers. The cards will be replaced with new numbers, but that will take a bit of time, and for the moment just going to the store is a nightmare. We went to get groceries Saturday night and it took almost an hour to get approved to cash a check. I remember when you could write one right at the counter, no problem. Now? 17 forms of ID, a police check, character references from your great-aunt in Boise, a letter from your priest-rabbi-imam-highpriestessofDiana. We ended up very late for Joycie’s birthday party (out of nursing home, responding very well to radiation, tumor shrunk, good news in all this mess.)

I go around with my bank on this one every so often.  I have an ATM card.  I do not have and do not want a debit card.  I do not need some schmuck screwing around in my checking account.  Even innocent (maybe) mistakes can be a royal PITA.  Such as when my daughter and a friend went out and rather than swiping each of their cards, they ran Tara’s twice.  Its easier to close a credit card account that gets fouled up and open a different one. So sorry you are getting run through this particular mill and hope it settles down soon. Wonderful news about Joyce.  Give her an extra hug from me OK? Jo

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I’m so sorry to hear about all your troubles. We’re sending lots of purrs for things to sort out quickly and for your treatment to help you improve soon. — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

Response:

Wow, that’s one helluvatime! Purrs that everything improves PDQ Gordon & the TT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically.

Response:

I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically. We discovered last week that some filthbag had stolen our debit card numbers and started hosing both our accounts. It’s been a fiasco. Blessed be, Baha

Oh man, that just bites!  I hope this filth doesn’t have your Social Security Number(s), too!  I know of a poster on another ng who is going through something similar – someone bought a car in his name, wrecked it… you know where this is going.  Same kinda crap you’re dealing with.  Hope they catch all these identity-theft scumbags soon. Jill

Response:

I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically.

No kidding!  I’m so sorry to hear about all that.  I have ADHD and dyslexia along with a touch of OCD, so I know a bit about what you’re going through. I finally had to just look for the positive in all this – I’m a perfectionist who has the energy to keep at it until I’m satisfied with the outcome, and I’m a great multi-tasker (I *HAVE* to multi-task since I can’t keep focused on just one thing at a time). I hope you get your credit cards straightened out in short order – living without plastic is almost impossible now-a-days! Mega purrs on the way!!! Hugs, CatNipped

Response:

I’ve missed you good folk and I’m sorry I haven’t been about. But this past week or so has sucked majestically. We discovered last week that some filthbag had stolen our debit card numbers and started hosing both our accounts. It’s been a fiasco. We’ve had to shut down every scrap of plastic in the house, spend hours on the phone with the credit bureaus to flag us (because the money has been going to an overseas company that presses shady credit cards for any fool desperate enough to pay the activation fee) and with our banks, not to mention the local police and FBI. In short, my identity is floating around out there somewhere, and some five-hundred pound, unwashed man is calling himself Elizabeth and ordering foreign porn featuring teenagers. The cards will be replaced with new numbers, but that will take a bit of time, and for the moment just going to the store is a nightmare. We went to get groceries Saturday night and it took almost an hour to get approved to cash a check. I remember when you could write one right at the counter, no problem. Now? 17 forms of ID, a police check, character references from your great-aunt in Boise, a letter from your priest-rabbi-imam-highpriestessofDiana. We ended up very late for Joycie’s birthday party (out of nursing home, responding very well to radiation, tumor shrunk, good news in all this mess.) On top of this, my work has asked me to get an evaluation for what was thought to be dyslexia. I’d been having trouble following certain instructions, getting all bollixed up when I had to do a multistep task for a customer’s account. It’s not dyslexia. I’ve had ADHD all this time, and on top of it I’ve just learned that I have a learning disability known as cognitive memory dysfunction. The sympoms tend to overlap with those of dyslexia. The bank is ready to toss me out on my @r$e. I’ve been put on Strattera as a trial for the ADHD, but little can be done about the other stuff. I’ve just lost an opportunity to advance because of this damnable thing, which has been disclosed to the company, the schmucks. I’m thinking of giving them a bill. Even with the insurance, my money would be beter spent on catnip for the babies and a nice, expensive lipstick for their hardworking mama. My psychiatrist is having kittens himself. My bipolar/OCD is a bastard to treat as it is, and throwing ADHD in the mix is a recipe for disaster. He and I are both concerned about me remaining employable. Now more than ever. Last night after having the job yanked from under my nose, the cats were all over me. They seem to know when Mama feels like hell. Brandy sat on me and purred like a little diesel engine. Stosh lay by my feet, and Roxie and Odessa kept coming to look in on me. I thank God for them. They’re not capable of the bullshit that human beings heap upon one another. Blessed be, Baha — Three thousand years ago, cats were deified in ancient Egypt. To this day, they have not forgotten.

Response:

Question:

December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not rebound any time soon, according to government officials. The cable, sent late last month as the officer ended a yearlong tour, presented a bleak assessment on matters of politics, economics and security, the officials said. They said its basic conclusions had been echoed in briefings presented by a senior C.I.A. official who recently visited Iraq. The officials described the two assessments as having been "mixed," saying that they did describe Iraq as having made important progress, particularly in terms of its political process, and credited Iraqis with being resilient. But over all, the officials described the station chief’s cable in particular as an unvarnished assessment of the difficulties ahead in Iraq. They said it warned that the security situation was likely to get worse, including more violence and sectarian clashes, unless there were marked improvements soon on the part of the Iraqi government, in terms of its ability to assert authority and to build the economy. Together, the appraisals, which follow several other such warnings from officials in Washington and in the field, were much more pessimistic than the public picture being offered by the Bush administration before the elections scheduled for Iraq next month, the officials said. The cable was sent to C.I.A. headquarters after American forces completed what military commanders have described as a significant victory, with the retaking of Falluja, a principal base of the Iraqi insurgency, in mid-November. The American ambassador to Iraq, John D. Negroponte, was said by the officials to have filed a written dissent, objecting to one finding as too harsh, on the ground that the United States had made more progress than was described in combating the Iraqi insurgency. But the top American military commander in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., also reviewed the cable and initially offered no objections, the officials said. One official said, however, that General Casey may have voiced objections in recent days. The station chief’s cable has been widely disseminated outside the C.I.A., and was initially described by a government official who read the document and who praised it as unusually candid. Other government officials who have read or been briefed on the document later described its contents. The officials refused to be identified by name or affiliation because of the delicacy of the issue. The station chief cannot be publicly identified because he continues to work undercover. Asked about the cable, a White House spokesman, Sean McCormack, said he could not discuss intelligence matters. A C.I.A. spokesman would say only that he could not comment on any classified document. It was not clear how the White House was responding to the station chief’s cable. In recent months, some Republicans, including Senator John McCain of Arizona, have accused the agency of seeking to undermine President Bush by disclosing intelligence reports whose conclusions contradict the administration or its policies. But senior intelligence officials including John E. McLaughlin, the departing deputy director of central intelligence, have disputed those assertions. One government official said the new assessments might suggest that Porter J. Goss, the new director of central intelligence, was willing to listen to views different from those publicly expressed by the administration. A separate, more formal, National Intelligence Estimate prepared in July and sent to the White House in August by American intelligence agencies also presented a dark forecast for Iraq’s future through the end of 2005. Among three possible developments described in that document, the best case was tenuous stability and the worst case included a chain of events leading to civil war. After news reports disclosed the existence of the National Intelligence Estimate, which also remains classified, President Bush initially dismissed the conclusions as nothing more than a guess. Since then, however, violence in Iraq has increased, including the recent formation of a Shiite militia intended to carry out attacks on Sunni militants. The end-of-tour cable from the station chief, spelling out an assessment of the situation on the ground, is a less-formal product than a National Intelligence Estimate. But it was drafted by an officer who is highly regarded within the C.I.A. and who, as station chief in Baghdad, has been the top American intelligence official in Iraq since December 2003. The station chief overseas an intelligence operation that includes about 300 people, making Baghdad the largest C.I.A. station since Saigon during the Vietnam War era. The senior C.I.A. official who visited Iraq and then briefed counterparts from other government agencies was Michael Kostiw, a senior adviser to Mr. Goss. One government official who knew about Mr. Kostiw’s briefings described them as "an honest portrayal of the situation on the ground." Since they took office in September, Mr. Goss and his aides have sought to discourage unauthorized disclosures of information. In a memorandum sent to C.I.A. employees last month, Mr. Goss said the job of the intelligence agency was to "provide the intelligence as we see it" but also to "support the administration and its policies in our work." "As agency employees we do not identify with, support or champion opposition to the administration or its policies," Mr. Goss said in that memorandum, saying that he was seeking "to clarify beyond doubt the rules of the road." The memorandum urged intelligence employees to "let the facts alone speak to the policy maker." Mr. Goss himself made his first foreign trip as the intelligence director last week, with stops that included several days in Britain and a day in Afghanistan, but he did not visit Iraq, the government officials said. At the White House on Monday, President Bush himself offered no hint of pessimism as he met with Iraq’s president, Sheik Ghazi al-Yawar. Despite the security challenges, Mr. Bush said, the United States continues to favor the voting scheduled for Iraq on Jan. 30 to "send the clear message to the few people in Iraq that are trying to stop the march toward democracy that they cannot stop elections." "The American people must understand that democracy just doesn’t happen overnight," he said. "It is a process. It is an evolution. After all, look at our own history. We had great principles enunciated in our Declarations of Independence and our Constitution, yet, we had slavery for a hundred years. It takes a while for democracy to take hold. And this is a major first step in a society which enables people to express their beliefs and their opinions." _____ Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access               at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence

Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not

rebound any time soon, according to government officials. The cable, sent late last month as the officer ended a yearlong tour,

presented a bleak assessment on matters of politics, economics and security, the officials said. They

said its basic conclusions had been echoed in briefings presented by a senior C.I.A. official who

recently visited Iraq. The officials described the two assessments as having been "mixed," saying

that they did describe Iraq as having made important progress, particularly in terms of its

political process, and credited Iraqis with being resilient. But over all, the officials described the station chief’s cable in

particular as an unvarnished assessment of the difficulties ahead in Iraq. They said it warned that the

security situation was likely to get worse, including more violence and sectarian clashes, unless there were marked improvements soon on the part of the Iraqi government, in terms of its

ability to assert authority and to build the economy. Together, the appraisals, which follow several other such warnings from

officials in Washington and in the field, were much more pessimistic than the public picture being offered by the Bush administration before the elections scheduled for Iraq next month, the

officials said. The cable was sent to C.I.A. headquarters after American forces completed what

military commanders have described as a significant victory, with the retaking of Falluja, a

principal base of the Iraqi insurgency, in mid-November. The American ambassador to Iraq, John D. Negroponte, was said by the

officials to have filed a written dissent, objecting to one finding as too harsh, on the ground that

the United States had made more progress than was described in combating the Iraqi insurgency.

But the top American military commander in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., also reviewed the

cable and initially offered no objections, the officials said. One official said, however, that

General Casey may have voiced objections in recent days. The station chief’s cable has been widely disseminated outside the C.I.A., and was initially described by a government official who read the document and who praised

it as unusually candid. Other government officials who have read or been briefed on the document later described its contents. The officials refused to be identified by name or affiliation

because of the delicacy of the issue. The station chief cannot be publicly identified because he

continues to work undercover. Asked about the cable, a White House spokesman, Sean McCormack, said he could not discuss intelligence matters. A C.I.A. spokesman would say only that he could not

comment on any classified document. It was not clear how the White House was responding to the station chief’s

cable. In recent months, some Republicans, including Senator John McCain of Arizona, have accused

the agency of seeking to undermine President Bush by disclosing intelligence reports whose

conclusions contradict the administration or its policies. But senior intelligence officials

including John E. McLaughlin, the departing deputy director of central intelligence, have disputed those

assertions. One government official said the new assessments might suggest that Porter J. Goss, the

new director of central intelligence, was willing to listen to views different from those publicly expressed by the administration. A separate, more formal, National Intelligence Estimate prepared in July

and sent to the White House in August by American intelligence agencies also presented a dark

forecast for Iraq’s future through the end of 2005. Among three possible developments described in

that document, the best case was tenuous stability and the worst case included a chain of events

leading to civil war. After news reports disclosed the existence of the National Intelligence

Estimate, which also remains classified, President Bush initially dismissed the conclusions as nothing more than a guess. Since then, however, violence in Iraq has increased, including the

recent formation of a Shiite militia intended to carry out attacks on Sunni militants. The end-of-tour cable from the station chief, spelling out an assessment

of the situation on the ground, is a less-formal product than a National Intelligence Estimate.

But it was drafted by an officer who is highly regarded within the C.I.A. and who, as station chief

in Baghdad, has been the top American intelligence official in Iraq since December 2003. The

station chief overseas an intelligence operation that includes about 300 people, making Baghdad the

largest C.I.A. station since Saigon during the Vietnam War era. The senior C.I.A. official who visited Iraq and then briefed counterparts

from other government agencies was Michael Kostiw, a senior adviser to Mr. Goss. One government

official who knew about Mr. Kostiw’s briefings described them as "an honest portrayal of the

situation on the ground." Since they took office in September, Mr. Goss and his aides have sought to

discourage unauthorized disclosures of information. In a memorandum sent to C.I.A. employees last

month, Mr. Goss said the job of the intelligence agency was to "provide the intelligence as we see

it" but also to "support the administration and its policies in our work." "As agency employees we do not identify with, support or champion

opposition to the administration or its policies," Mr. Goss said in that memorandum, saying that he was

seeking "to clarify beyond doubt the rules of the road." The memorandum urged intelligence employees

to "let the facts alone speak to the policy maker." Mr. Goss himself made his first foreign trip as the intelligence director

last week, with stops that included several days in Britain and a day in Afghanistan, but he did not visit Iraq, the government officials said. At the White House on Monday, President Bush himself offered no hint of

pessimism as he met with Iraq’s president, Sheik Ghazi al-Yawar. Despite the security challenges,

Mr. Bush said, the United States continues to favor the voting scheduled for Iraq on Jan. 30 to

"send the clear message to the few people in Iraq that are trying to stop the march toward democracy

that they cannot stop elections." "The American people must understand that democracy just doesn’t happen

overnight," he said. "It is a process. It is an evolution. After all, look at our own history. We had great principles enunciated in our Declarations of Independence and our Constitution, yet,

we had slavery for a hundred years. It takes a while for democracy to take hold. And this is a

major first step in a society which enables people to express their beliefs and their opinions." _____ Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access               at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Sounds like disinformation intended to imbolden and possibly bring out liberal insurgents. If someone was leaking classified information, especially fresh reports the scope of access would be narrow enough to without much investigation determine to within 2 or 3 persons or closer who the leak was and as it would be a serious crime and make it easy to envoke covert rules.

Response:

finest neo-Bolshevik agit-prop to a disinterested audience, shared this turd: < commie twaddle excised BLACK WIDOW SPIDER BITES The female black widow typically is coal black and has a prominent, spherical abdomen that may be as large as one-half inch (1.25 cm) in diameter.  This appearance is so distinctive that finding the characteristic markings on the undersurface of the abdomen is rarely necessary.  The typical markings consist of red or orange figures that usually resemble an hourglass, but may be round, broken into two figures, or have some other configuration.  Markings of the same color but in varying patterns are sometimes present on the back, although only the undersurface markings are considered characteristic.  In some southwestern states black widow spiders have irregular white patches on their abdomens.  Different species of Latrodectus in other countries have a similar appearance. (fbe mate is smaller, has a brown color, and is harmless.) The black widow weaves a coarse, crudely constructed web in dark corners, both indoors and out.  Almost half the black widow bites reported in the medical literature in the first four decades of this century were inflicted on the male genitalia by spiders On the underside of outdoor toilet seats.  However, this spider is timid and would rather run than attack an intruder. Thirty to forty years ago five to ten deaths a year resulted from black widow spider bites, although they were limited almost entirely to small children or elderly individuals in poor health.  Recognition and treatment of such bites has improved so much that deaths are rare within the United States. (Bites in children weighing thirty pounds or less would still have a mortality of about fifty percent if untreated.) In healthy adults, black widow spider bites cause painful muscle spasms and prostration for two to four days, but complete recovery essentially always follows.  Antivenin treatment is not recommended for adults. The bite may feel like a pin prick, may produce a mild burning, or may not be noticed at all.  Small puncture wounds, slight redness, or no visible marks may be found at the site of the bite.  Within about fifteen minutes painful muscle cramps develop at the point of the bite and rapidly spread to involve the entire body.  The characteristic pattern of spread is by continuity.  From a bite on the forearm the cramps would spread to the upper arm, to the shoulder, and over the chest to involve the rest of the body, including the legs.  The abdominal muscles are characteristically rigid and hard, although the abdomen is not tender.  Weakness and tremors are also present. A typical subject is anxious and restless.  A feeble pulse and cold, clammy skin suggest shock; labored breathing, slurred speech, impaired coordination, mild stupor, and rare convulsions (in children) suggest disease involving the brain, Bitten individuals are often covered with perspiration; dizziness, nausea, and vomiting are common.  If the spider or its bite have not been observed, the signs and symptoms may lead to an erroneous diagnosis of an acute abdominal emergency. Symptoms typically increase in severity for several hours, occasionally as long as twenty-four hours, and then gradually subside. After two or three days essentially all symptoms disappear, although a few minor residua may persist for weeks or months. Treatment consists of efforts to relieve the painful muscle spasms and antivenin for small children.  No treatment at all should be directed to the site of the bite, with the possible exception of applying an ice cube to relieve pain.  Incision and suction is damaging and useless and should not be performed. Essentially nothing can be done outside a hospital; small children must be hospitalized.  Antivenin, produced in the United States by Merck Sharp & Dohme, and the drugs to control spasms are rarely available anywhere else.  The antivenin is prepared in horses and should not be given to persons allergic to horse serum.  It is usually not administered to healthy adults between the ages of sixteen and sixty, and only to individuals of small body size with severe symptoms who are twelve to fifteen years old.  Instructions with the vial of antiserum should be followed. Muscle spasms may be relieved by periodic injections of 10 cc of a ten percent calcium gluconate solution or 10 cc of methocarbamol, but these are rarely available outside a hospital.  A tranquilizer (diazepam) may help relieve less severe muscle spasms; hot baths are occasionally helpful.  Strong analgesics are helpful but rarely provide complete pain relief.

Response:

A half-witted neocon nimrod proudly bleated: BULLSHIT Wild Kingdom article snipped So, Clod, I guess what you’re trying to say is that you’re a female spider with a pin prick who has muscle spasms. My condolences. Hope the sex change goes well for you. Bob

Response:

YOU LOST.  Get over it. LV Bruce Morgen slobbered: (NYT crap)

Response:

fluffed itself up as much as it could and angrily twittered: A half-witted neocon nimrod proudly bleated: BULLSHIT Wild Kingdom article snipped So, Clod, I guess what you’re trying to say is that you’re a female spider with a pin prick who has muscle spasms. My condolences. Hope the sex change goes well for you. Bob, still kneeling

Zzzzzzzzzzz. Don’t give up yet. You’re close to passing an original thought. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod

Response:

YOU LOST.  Get over it. LV Bruce Morgen slobbered: (NYT crap)

Would you prefer it from your favorite Moonie rag via the Moon-owned UPI wire?  They picked right up on it, like a duck on a june bug!        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access               at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

Some generic, whining asshole calling itself Bobsyeruncle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – fluffed itself up as much as it could and angrily twittered: A half-witted neocon nimrod proudly bleated: BULLSHIT Wild Kingdom article snipped So, Clod, I guess what you’re trying to say is that you’re a female spider with a pin prick who has muscle spasms. My condolences. Hope the sex change goes well for you. Bob, still kneeling Zzzzzzzzzzz. Don’t give up yet. You’re close to passing an original thought. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod

Response:

Clad in women’s undergarments, Clod fumed: Zzzzzzzzzzzopi. I want you. You’re all the man I’ll ever need. I won’t give up yet. I’m close to passing a hard turd, though. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod

How’s that, Clot? Bob

Response:

Searching the depths of his apparently limited imagination, the whining asshole – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Clad in women’s undergarments, Clod fumed: Zzzzzzzzzzzopi. I want you. You’re all the man I’ll ever need. I won’t give up yet. I’m close to passing a hard turd, though. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod How’s that, Clot? Bob

Just about what one would expect. Mulay Lite. Almost as good as melatonin. "Fumed"? Do keep on Bobbing though. Klod

Response:

Experiencing a transitory moment of lucidity, some whining asshole posting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some generic, whining asshole calling itself Bobsyeruncle fluffed itself up as much as it could and angrily twittered: A half-witted neocon nimrod proudly bleated: BULLSHIT Wild Kingdom article snipped So, Clod, I guess what you’re trying to say is that you’re a female spider with a pin prick who has muscle spasms. My condolences. Hope the sex change goes well for you. Bob, still kneeling Zzzzzzzzzzz. Don’t give up yet. You’re close to passing an original thought. Quality is still not there, though. Google up some Ed Blum and Marc Mulay for some pointers. Klod

This is your best post yet, Bobber. Keep up the good thoughts. Claude

Response:

December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not rebound any time soon, according to government officials.

I think we can safely disregard this. We were told by Duby & Co. that we’d be welcomed with open arms. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

(crap)

You’re annoying. Quit it. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

Clot burbled to the surface of the tampon and lamented: Just about what one would expect. Mulay Lite.

There’s only one Marc Mulay-we aim to please- If you meet Kneel down there, don’t let LV’s balls slap you in the face. Almost as good as melatonin.

But not quite as good as valium, I guess? "Fumed"?

A prissy word meaning to simper- look it up. Do keep on Bobbing though.

I gotta be me. Klod

Bob

Response:

In a vain attempt to amuse the group, the asshole posting as Bobsyeruncle Clot burbled to the surface of the tampon and lamented: Just about what one would expect. Mulay Lite. There’s only one Marc Mulay-we aim to please- If you meet Kneel down there, don’t let LV’s balls slap you in the face.

Ahhh, so that’s what your beef is with Willie. Alienation of your "partner"’s affection. How wrong I was. All this time I thought that you were merely another one of the Lord’s interchangeable, whining, anonymous fartcatchers following him around AGA for no particular reason. My deepest apologies for underestimating you. Almost as good as melatonin. But not quite as good as valium, I guess? "Fumed"? A prissy word meaning to simper- look it up.

No thanks, you can keep "prissy". It fits you perfectly. Do keep on Bobbing though. I gotta be me.

Just make sure your clients wear a thick condom. We wouldn’t want them to catch something, now would we. Klod

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not rebound any time soon, according to government officials. I think we can safely disregard this. We were told by Duby & Co. that we’d be welcomed with open arms. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Hi, When will Dubya and his gang wake up and smell the real coffee? After all the horses ran off the corral I guess. Are they slow learners or do they have learning disability? They don’t seem to have any common sense at all. Tony

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – December 7, 2004 INTELLIGENCE 2 C.I.A. Reports Offer Warnings on Iraq’s Path By DOUGLAS JEHL WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 – A classified cable sent by the Central Intelligence Agency’s station chief in Baghdad has warned that the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and may not rebound any time soon, according to government officials. I think we can safely disregard this. We were told by Duby & Co. that we’d be welcomed with open arms. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/ Hi, When will Dubya and his gang wake up and smell the real coffee? After all the horses ran off the corral I guess. Are they slow learners or do they have learning disability? They don’t seem to have any common sense at all. Tony

George W. Bush actually has dyslexia. John

Response:

Anything that annoys your lame ass is worth doing over and over. BTW – this is a top post, you’re an asshole, drop dead, and Jesus loves you. LV – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (crap) You’re annoying. Quit it. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

Jesus loves you.

Like you know squat about Jesus.

Response:

Jesus loves you. Like you know squat about Jesus.

Jesus thinks you’re an asshole. He told me so.  He also told me not to tell. Now I’m goin’ ta HELL, and it’s your fault. You PLICK!  (I’m part Chinese.) Lord Valve Uh-Oh…

Response:

BLACK WIDOW SPIDER BITES The female black widow typically is coal black and has a prominent, spherical abdomen that may be as large as one-half inch (1.25 cm) in diameter.

Black Widows are also enormously strong for their size. When I lived in El Paso, I used to toss those big-ass Texas cockroaches into black widow webs for fun, just to see that tiny spider run down & kill it, then wrap it up & hang it like a side of beef. Amazing.   — Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA www.triodeelectronics.com

Response:

George W. Bush actually has dyslexia. John

Dyslexia I don’t mind. Some very famous & smart people are & have been dyslexic, like George S Patton, for a well known example. Some folks are just plain stupid, whether they’re dyslexic or not. Weren’t some folks predicting that (a) Iraq would turn into a quagmire and (b) the value of the US dollar would start looking at being at par value with Polish zlotys, only a month or so ago?..and (c) every dittohead was screaming that none of that would happen, those predictions were merely inventions of the mainstream liberal leaning media (D’oh! They STILL are screaming that!). Any rate, Bush policies are good for Canadians who are finding out that their currency suddenly has value above rolls of Charmin, and there’s some merit in keeping their government budget balanced. — Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA www.triodeelectronics.com

Response:

<< George W. Bush actually has dyslexia. John <BR<BR According to who? George Soros? — Dr. Nuketopia Sorry, no e-Mail. Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

Response:

Jesus loves you. Like you know squat about Jesus.

Well,  I know LOTS about him…  and he does. Can you prove otherwise… ? ? ? gtski

Response:

Ned… As the result of your casual orientation toward biological reality and its integral relationship with karma, your life energy is destined to return as a cockroach, in the region humans refer to as "Texas"*. Enjoy the balance of time as "humanity" you were awarded…and wasted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BLACK WIDOW SPIDER BITES The female black widow typically is coal black and has a prominent, spherical abdomen that may be as large as one-half inch (1.25 cm) in diameter. Black Widows are also enormously strong for their size. When I lived in El Paso, I used to toss those big-ass Texas cockroaches* into black widow webs for fun, just to see that tiny spider run down & kill it, then wrap it up & hang it like a side of beef. Amazing.  

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Question:

wow, the threats look really interesting.  unfortunantely my head is too over whelmed to read anything write now.  i just finished my first three weeks of teaching.  i don’t know, but i am wondering if am cut out to be a teacher.  i can teach very well.  and i have excellent repore with my students.  (i found out that one of my students yesterday has a sever behavioural disorder.  i completely thought she was joking when she told me this, but she said, "it true miss, i am in a special program for bad kids. i just like you that is why i am good for you.")  at anyrate, i am so over worked and so drained that my mind feels like and marathon runner’s muscles after a race.  …painfull mush.  my learning specialist said the only thing that cures that is sleep.  so i slpet for 12 hours last night and i still feel like mush. the worst par is my dyslexia and dysgraphia (both hand writting ability and orrganisation of thoughts) and spelling ability goes down the tube.  for the first two weeks none of my students caught on that i had a problem, this past week it was really bad.  i couldn’t make a sentence that was accurate, i spelt hypotenus different every time i tried.  after the students tried spelling it out to me and i still kept getting it wrong, finally a student said, "miss just copy it out of the book!"  i inverted numbers, i copied numbers down wrong etc…  i feel very unjust when i dock marks for students for doing the various things wrong that i do.  but i think the ministry of education would be very mad at me if i gave full marks to students who made little tiny errors on the premise that it was an honest mistake. i am off to paint.  i am no artist, but something about squishing and colurs and feel of paint is extremely soothing to the mind. jodie Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

just testing

Response:

^ i just finished my first three weeks of teaching.  i don’t know, but i am ^ wondering if am cut out to be a teacher.  i can teach very well. ^  and i have excellent repore with my students.  …at anyrate, i am ^ so over worked and so drained that my mind feels like and ^ marathon runner’s muscles after a race.  …painfull mush. Everything is still new and you don’t have it completely organized yet. As you gain experience a lot of the things you do will become second nature and you will become more organized. The job will be much easier and you will become much better at foreseeing problems. Frank

Response:

just testing

hello? dyslexic? or just testing? roger

Response:

Teaching is an art so not being a painter is not exactly true, your paints and canvas are just a little more tricky to use, the picture is worth waiting for so the detail is important, I think. Just remember the comments are what the students like so 49% is not great, a comment like- "I can see you have tried hard next time we will do better" or "I really enjoyed this " or "Concentrate a little more on the detail as your natural ability for flair is good" -is. Don’t use joinedy up writing it looses something in the translation Sean (On the receiving End)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ i just finished my first three weeks of teaching.  i don’t know, but i am ^ wondering if am cut out to be a teacher.  i can teach very well. ^  and i have excellent repore with my students.  …at anyrate, i am ^ so over worked and so drained that my mind feels like and ^ marathon runner’s muscles after a race.  …painfull mush. Everything is still new and you don’t have it completely organized yet. As you gain experience a lot of the things you do will become second nature and you will become more organized. The job will be much easier and you will become much better at foreseeing problems. Frank

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Question:

HOWEDY diannes,

I also teach advanced stuff like heeling off-lead, down at a distance, coming when called while running full speed in the other direction, etc.

You mean withHOWET a shock collar? You call that *advanced*?

Not like kwbrown’s DROP GODDAMNED DEAD command she taught her own DEAD DOG Teena. I thought you were the guy who said leashes were abusive tools…

Only when used to intentionally HURT and INTIMIDATE a dog, like kwbrown done to her own DEAD DOG Teena. Or like THIS:   lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:   For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and   pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it.   When he barks, use the line for a correction.  - if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.   Lynn K. and here you are, telling us that heeling off-leash is *advanced*?  Am I to take this to mean that you don’t teach heeling off- leash from the start?

The QUESTION we been wonderin abHOWET is HOWE to break CHOWENTER surfin. Many of us do, you know.

Yeah. But noWON got any idea HOWE to break CHOWENTER surfin garbage bin raiding or poo eatin. Then we can talk abHOWET aggression. Using those outmoded and ineffective training models you so scorn.

Like MURDERIN your own dog? But Kate, don’t you know that we dog  trainers get into this because we get off  on control?*

Yeah. That’s only part of it. The other part is to compensate for your fragile defective egos weak fearful minds and inferiority complexes. OtherWIZE, you wouldn’t HURT INTIMIDATE BRIBE CRATE and MURDER dogs and try to get HOWET callin THAT, trainin. We don’t WANT to train them to control their own behavior because then we wouldn’t get the pleasure of pushing them around.

You CAN’T train them to CON-TROLL their own behavior on accHOWENT of you HURT and INTIMDIATE them and THAT’S HOWE COME your dogs become aggressive and hyperactive and physically ill and then you MURDER them and blame the dog and pass the crying THOWEL and DO IT AGAIN. I’m sure you can’t actually send Storm on a 200-yard water retrieve, and of course I’d never dream of letting Patience out into the pasture at night, knowing that she’ll bring me all 150 sheep on her own.

Perhaps you could use some of Lee’s methods to train your dog to enjoy herding sheep only when and where you PREFER? It’s all part of trainin. And as for 200 yards, if you can train a dog to do a behavior two feet in front of you he’ll DO it at 200 yards, so long as you’re not relying on PAIN FEAR FORCE and INTIMIDATION to FORCE CON-TROLL of your dogs. THAT’S HOWE COME you bums need shock collars. Gee, think how much more we could accomplish if we could trust them.

Your dog would NATURALLY want to do ANY THING YOU ASK if you didn’t HURT and INIMIDATE them, diannes.  Think how much more we could accomplish  if we used their instincts to help train them. <*vvbg*

If your SELECTIVELY BRED for generations of SELECTIVELY BRED chumpions was well bred, they’d INSTINCTIVELY DO every thing you’re talkin abHOWET as being DIFFICULT. But you can’t even make a SELECTIVELY BRED HUNTIN dog hunt withHOWET HURTIN him. Dianne & Patience (Ch. Nightwind Impulsive Shopper HX ATDd OTDs STDc OA NAJ OAC   OJC NGC RS-O JS-O GS-N CGC HOF) * Responding (belatedly) to comments Lee made in

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=8eecd625f0323da4c60317f732bddd04 %40localhost.talkaboutpets.com HOWE do you stop CHOWENTER surfin poo eatin hole digging garbage bin raiding dog aggression kat aggression or any behavior withHOWET HURTIN the dog, diannes? The Amazing Puppy Wizard had offered $100.00 CASH for ANY NON VIOLENT METHOD that WORKS for ANY of those problems. You got ANY answers, EXXXPERT DOG TRAINER? Your PALS only know HOWE to SHOCK dogs for those behaviors and then they ADMIT it won’t work if you’re not there to HURT and INTIMIDATE the dog, diannes. Your pal tommy sorenson told Disciple Paulie and Marty B they’d NEED to HURT their dogs MOORE than they’d LIKE to break coprophagia. They REPORTED they BROKE coprophagia in a couple minutes using The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual. hjm aka tommy sorenson aka dogman called them LIARS. REMEMBER, diannes? BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Here’s a few of your PALS HURTING dogs and LYING abHOWET it: "Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn. "I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in one shelter.)  But their ability to set their own schedules and duties causes a great deal of scheduling overhead. And it takes effort and thought to ensure that volunteers get the meaningful experience that they work for. Someone has to be responsible for that Volunteer Program, and it is best done by a non-volunteer." Lynn K. "You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House Cats? Don’t bother. The answer is never," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn. lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs: "This Article Is Something We’ve Put Together For SF GSD Rescue  How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay – this is going to be a bit loooong  - Lynn K. "Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.  Don’t forget to put the muzzle on the dog.   I think a prong works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation. Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how to instruct the owner in their proper use.   Electronics can take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars.  At that time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or whatever other reward system was being used."  Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don’t forget to put the muzzle on the dog.   I think a prong works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation.   Have the dog in a sit-stay next to you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is why you have the dog muzzled). If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your voice and the collar. This is important – the correction must be physically very strong – not a nag.   (PS: not many dogs need to be corrected at all)." Lynn, looks like he got you there if these quotes are true. In the posts below you take responsibility for making those calls. In your post above, you state you do not make those calls. Which one is it?

                       WORDS OF WISDOM                  from our own Lynn Kosmakos   1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day                          For Twenty Years        I THINK I’M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT                                 LITHIUM   "I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic- depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day.   I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to   learn more, while happily sharing pertinent   information I have learned.  But if I were ever   to post such sh*t,  I would hope that every other   reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."   "Community is an evolutionary thing that we   earn the right to participate in by observing   the easily understood rules and contributing   to in constructive ways."    Lynn K.   "It wasn’t that meds didn’t work for her   – she wouldn’t take them. I particularly remember   a comment she made about scarey side effects of   Lithium.  Hardly.  After 17 years on it, I think   I’m qualified to say that the very low risk of   any side effect is far less frightening than the   very real dangers of life without it."   Lynn K. LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar conversation on Mental problems.  LYNN AND LOIS Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined But I think what Lois was referring to was the fact that Darlene actually stated at some point that she was bipolar–and, IIRC, that meds did not work for her–so she was prone to major-league ups and downs and sudden enthusiasms..

  "It wasn’t that meds didn’t work for her   – she wouldn’t take them. I particularly remember   a comment she made about scarey side effects of   Lithium.  Hardly.  After 17 years on it, I think   I’m qualified to say that the very low risk of   any side effect is far less frightening than the   very real dangers of life without it."   Lynn K. LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND I know I am totally off topic here, but have you read  "The Unquiet Mind"?

  Yeah.  It’s interesting, but kind of   watered down for the mass market, if   you know what I mean.  There’s really   quite a lot of good work out there and   decent research.  Thank God.   Lynn K. MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!" MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR… YOU DO THE MATH "What’s really terrific, is now days you can say proudly, ‘I take anti-depressives’" … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY kwbrown,

I also teach advanced stuff like heeling off-lead, down at a distance, coming when called while running full speed in the other direction, etc. You call that *advanced*?

Well, maybe no compared to the DROP DEAD command you taught your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER? I thought you were the guy who said leashes  were abusive tools…

Only like HOWE you used it on your DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER? The Amazing Puppy Wizard had WARNED you since day WON that you’d MURDER your own dog. REMEMBER? and here you are,

The Amazing Puppy Wizard sayin "TOLD YOU SO", again, just like HOWE HE been doin with all the other DEAD DOGS you bums have enterTRAINED TO DEATH right here. REMEMBER, kwbrown? telling us that heeling off-leash is *advanced*?

It is, unless you’re a shock collar trainer. Then it’s EZ. So long as you got enough juice.   Am I to take this to mean that you don’t teach heeling off-leash from the start?

Off lead is the same same as on lead if you don’t jerk and choke the dog. REMEMBER, kwbrown? Oh, that’s right. You HURT your dog, THAT’S HOWE COME she turned on you and you MURDERED her on accHOWENT of you couldn’t stop HURTIN her someMOORE. REMEMBER, kwbrown? Many of us do, you know.

That so? Perhaps THAT’S HOWE COME you all rely on shock collars? Using those outmoded and ineffective training models you so scorn.

You and tommy HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER dogs. Until now,

Was Teena the first dog you’ve hurt intimidated and murdered? We know tommy has a lotta dogs he’s murdered when he got too scareed to hurt and intimidate them someMOORE. I just thought you were a pompous windbag –

Let’s talk abHOWET Teena, kwbrown? Perhaps some of Lee’s methods woulda trained her to like working with you and not be afraid of you hurtin her someMOORE? but now, Lee Charles Kelly, I call you a *fraud.*

What do you suppose Teena would think, kwbrown? If you’re pawning off simple intermediate  obedience work as "advanced"

Well, not advanced compared to you and your DROP GODDAMENED DEAD command, kwbrown, for SHORE. on your adoring public,

The Amazing Puppy Wizard was highly impressed with Lee’s book, "NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD TRAINERS," where Lee teaches us HOWE COME dogs TURN on their abusers and fail to work withHOWET shock collars. you’re nothing more than a con artist

Actually, Lee is a struggling author and dog trainer. But you wouldn’t know he was a dog trainer on accHOWENT of there ain’t nuthin you’re familiar with, that he teaches. with an advanced vocabulary and a bad case of logorrhea.

Lee don’t have the DROP GODDAMNED DEAD command in his vocabulary, kwbrown. Care to teach it to him? HJM and I come from the very opposite ends of the political spectrum.

hjm, kwbrown? There AIN’T no hjm, kwbrown. I disagree with his style,

You mean being a anonymHOWES vulgar lying dog abusing punk thug coward mysoginist homophobe racist? and he has *really* pissed me off more than once.

That so? You mean tommy sorenson aka dogman. You can look up his posting history under Lysol and Anchovie.   I’m not sure he’d even set foot in my happily  adopted home, Soviet Canuckistan.  But this  time, I’m with him.

INDEEDY. "Birds of a feather. When you lie with pigs you’ll awaken stinkin like em. You’re JUDGED BY the company you keep. When you get bagged for LYING you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY. I fully acknowledge that any of his dogs could  kick my dog’s butt in a field trial,

That so, kwbrown? Who’s dogs? hjm? hjm has never talked abHOWET his dogs. Has he. Neither has dogman. tommy sorenson doesn’t post here, according to hjm. so here’s an offer, you charlatan.

Let’s DOCUMENT hjm’s WINS before admitting he can HOWEtrain you, eh, kwbrown? On accHOWENT of hjm has NEVER registered a dog anywhere. EVER. O.K.? So, FORGET abHOWET hjm’s dogs on accHOWENT of hjm has NEVER owned a dog. HAS HE.   We’ll make it easier.

Don’t get no EZier than THAT. Show WON dog that hjm has ever registered? Show WON ANY thing hjm has ever done EXXXCEPT post anonymHOWESLY and DENY who he really is when shown the RECORDS provin who’s who when postin. Come deal with a less-experienced trainer and her off-breeed dog, trained only for hunt tests.

You mean, you want Lee to teach you HOWE to improve your DROP GODDAMNED DEAD command?  Only to the intermediate level.

You mean like HALF DEAD, kwbrown? Like the day you posted here that she was turnin on you and janet and hjm told you to jerk and choke her someMOORE? Next time you and Fred are out this way for some book signing, prove to me how easy it is to apply your training religion to some *real* work.

You mean like MURDERIN your own DEAD DOG Teena? Lee couldn’t heelp you with that kinda trainin, kwbrown. Five birds.  Two land, two water, one blind.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard is already CONfHOWENDED with your arithmetic. We’ll keep it easy for poor ol’ Fred and keep everything under 150 yards.

O.K. No problem, on accHOWENT of distance don’t CHOWENT, unless you gotta HURT your dog to train IT, kwbrown. We’ll keep it fair and run everything under CKC Senior Hunt rules.

Does that mean you can shock your dog? C’mon, Lee Charles Kelley.  Put your absurd theories to some use instead of parading  yourself as an expert while, all along, teaching simple commands that should be in most dogs’ vocabularies as "advanced."

Like your DROP GODDAMNED DEAD command, kwbrown? Kate and Affinity Easy Sailing JH WCX CGN the FCR

HOWEDY People, The followin posts are brought to you courtesy of ed w of PET LOSS dot CON and professor marshall dermer, associate professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research and his dog abusing flunky partner dr plonsky at UofWI: ENJOY!: Alan, The puppy wizard calls it as he sees it. He isn’t PC and that pisses people off. The fact is that I have used his FREE methods and they DO in fact work. What a crock of shit relating his methods to a science experiment. Yes, the man is a cross posting menace and has proly smoked too many batts in his day but he has the canine species best interest at heart and doesn’t profit from his point of view. He is a selfless advocate for dogs and that’s enough for me to respect the man no matter how controversial he gets. Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said. Mike Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said. Mike Ok Mike which part worked for you?

It helped clear problems from my dogs in the field using the can penny distraction technique. Works  like a charm. My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie, retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team Leader. Sorry that slipped my mind. I have read volumes of training books and don’t know where people get that Jerry copied others work as I have NEVER come across his methods before. I would like to see proof. Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to the way I wanted them but this is backward, you train out the problems leaving what you want left over. Funny part is the second dog who had the same problems as the other didn’t need correcting for some of his habits after I cleared it from the first dog. Seemed he learned through osmosis. Nice side benefit there. It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party trainer as they were not performing well. The VAST majority of working dog trainers are agressive in their actions with the dogs. I tried it and it didn’t work and guess what? I was at my "Whits End" then someone I knew turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history. I referred friends and families to Jerry’s manual and all have had great results. Starting puppies out on the distraction technique is especially good because they never develop the habit. I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after 2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened in all my days. Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple. Mike neighbors. Please read the Puppy Wizard’s Wits’ End Training Method. You can easily train your dog (regardless of its breed) to behave. Since dogs are very sensitive to peoples’ emotions, you shouldn’t scold, yell or punish your dog when he misbehaves–your dog will think that it is your neighbor with whom you are upset and this will exasperate his behavior toward him. Using Jerry’s training method you can teach your dog to feel comfortable with the boundary of your fence. You will learn from his manual that it is natural for dogs to vecome frustrated from being restrained at such boundaries. This frustration causes them to become agitated and to fixate upon the people whom they see across the boundary. Once taught to feel comfortable with the fence boundary, the aggression problems will dissipate. –Larry HOWEDY TooCool,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have studied canine behavior and

… read more »

Response:

BWEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HOWEDY kwbrown, berlin.de: If you’re pawning off simple intermediate obedience work as "advanced" on your adoring public, you’re nothing more than a con artist with an advanced vocabulary and a bad case of logorrhea. I have to not only disagree, but take exception to this. Tara: I’ll have to accept your judgement long term incurable active drunk and multi substance abuser. IOW, a MENTAL CASE. Like yourself and the rest of your PALS here abHOWETS.  that training certain behaviours is more difficult in NYC than other places – Seems AA sez it’s a LAME EXXXCUSE SICK PEOPLE USE to BLAME "PEOPE PLACES and THINGS" as what CAUSES a DRUNK to DRINK.  the bagels would certainly make for  a challenging distraction. ONLY FOR A COUPLE OF MINUTES TILL THE DOG LEARNS NOT TO TAKE IT.  I’ve only visited the city and agree that getting a dog to a point that you had attention heeling on Broadway would be a challenge. IOW, you’re gonna BLAME "PEOPLE PLACES and THINGS" instead of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for your own FAILURE to understand HOWE to pupperly handle and train a dog. Still:  this man’s "Natural Dog Training" nonsense Yeah. NONESENSE. is unproven by anyone but himself, Well, seems that’s your standard EXXXCUSE for dismissing ANY non violent trainer who’s ever posted here abHOWETS. REMEMBER?  and if he’s telling the world that he’s teaching "advanced" topics in dog training with his mumbojumbo, You mean INSTEAD of MURDERIN dogs like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena? CuriHOWES ain’t it, HOWE COME you MURDER dogs and call Lee and ALL NON VIOLENT TRAINERS FRAUDS and LIARS. REMEMBER?  and that he somehow has the secret to succeeding with dogs, Yeah. It STARTS with NOT HURTIN and INTIMDATING them like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER, kwbrown? he’s putting one over on people. You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena. You HURT INTIMIDATED and MURDERED her.  For Pete’s sake:  off-lead heeling is CD-level work! The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students REPORT achieving that level pryor to 4 months old.  A remote down doesn’t need acres of pastoral fields – Cut the crap.  it takes patience and slow extension of the distance and circumstances under which the drop is requested. No it don’t. ANY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students achieve that pryor to 4 months of age. Trainin dogs is EZ if you don’t HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER them like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER, kwbrown? You can do this in your apartment hallway. You think so? He’s never demonstrated the success of his miraculous methods where it counts:  in a competitive ring of any kind, where training is measured against stable benchmarks. Oh? HOWE abHOWET "MEASURING" Lee’s SUCCESS against YOUR OWN DEAD DOG Teena you HURT INTIMIDATED and MURDERED? If he’s so good, why can’t he go put a CD (at least) on Ol’ Fred, instead of spending his time typing his little heart out (with breaks taken to pester and annoy owners of other dogs who have the misfortune to meet them in the park)? Perhaps that’s on accHOWENT of the simpletons in the obedience and field trial rings are not the kind of company decent people prefer to keep? And if you don’t believe that this fool is running off at the keyboard, then we’ll have to agree to disagree. You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena on accHOWENT of you couldn’t stop HURTIN and INTIMIDATING her. REMEMBER, kwbrown? Kate and Storm and Fetus Petitus the FCRs HOWEDY shelly & The Boys, So, any suggestions on how to break the countersurfing habit? The ONLY advice has been to HURT your dog, marie. With Coda, it was easy, That so? he just wasn’t overly motivated (or rewarded) by food on the counter. But you didn’t leave STUFF there for him, either, on accHOWENT of YOU NEVER KNOW when your TRAININ might FAIL. With Bodhi, it’s a different story. That so?   No matter how many times I tell him "Uh-uh!"  or  "No!" or whatever, Oh. You mean no matter HOWE many times you VARIABLY REINFORCE the behavior by punishing and scolding him. if there is food (or a pan that once had food in it) on the countertop left where he can reach it AND no one is home, there’s no stopping him. Right. THAT’S HOWE COME PUNISHMENT FAILS. You’re a mental case. When I am home, even during the night, no one messes with anything. On accHOWENT of your dogs are AFRAID of you. But, I know that if I were to entrust him in the day while were are at work?  Forget it, all bets are off. What BETS? You could BET YOUR LIFE your dog will STEAL whatever he can find on accHOWENT of he KNOWS you can’t HURT and INTIMIDATE him if you’re not there to punish him. THAT’S HOWE COME dogs get separation anxiHOWESNESS car sickness and fear of thunder, on accHOWENT of the CON-TROLLER ain’t there to HURT and INTIMIDATE them.   That includes the small trashcan in our bedroom that usually has used tissues or holey socks in it. Yeah. Your dog might KILL hisself on them like janet boss’s dog nearly done. It also includes hair scruchies & boxes of tissues. Yeah. On accHOWENT of you hurt and intimidate your dog instead of trainin IT. They all get put out of reach when I go to work. Of curse. UNLESS you FORGET. Like HOWE your pal bentcajungirl aka perry’s DEAD DOG Maggie ate Gorilla Glue and shit the bed on her.   If not, I figure it’s my own fault for leaving them in his reach Like bencajungirl aka perry done. when I *know* he’ll most likely get into/destroy them. That’s on accHOWENT of your dog knows you can’t PUNISH him if you’re not there to catch him IN THE ACT… IOW, you’re a dog abuser / mental case. Shelly & The Boys "Just Want To Second Jerry’s Method For Dealing With This (Destructive Separation Anxiety). I’ve Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now And It’s Worked ‘EVERY TIME The Very First Time’ – marilyn, Trainer, 33 Years Experience. Aloha Sunny, Just follow the training program to the letter, no matter how insignificant some of the step seem to be and your pupy will be a very well behaved dog in a few days. I would seriously consider backing out of the training classes as they will conflict with the Wit’s End principles. I went the training route first, and still had problems until I found Wits’ End. Now I have two "new and improved" dogs. You won’t be disappointed if you follow the program. Good luck, Hoku —– Original Message —– To: The Puppy Wizard Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 6:12 PM Aloha Jerry, Just wanted to let you know that the surrogate toy technique is working wonders.  I have not had a shredded sheet for over a week now.  It is nice to be able to leave the bed made and come home to a made bed. Your program is awesome, but you already know that.  Keep up the good work! Hoku Chris Williams writes: "The FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what I’ve always done without thinking of it as "training". New stuff, I’ve used. His anchoring technique erased the last of Mac’s fireworks trauma,"        Engrossing account, Anthony.  Our best to Angel and your family.        A friend, who socializes the kittens I’ve taken from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.        She reports far fewer panic problems than she’s had before. .. Tracy, What worked for me, in just one storm, was to praise the dog after each clap of thunder, telling him he’s a Good Dog! This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.  The next time it thundered, he did not even react at  all–you could not tell it was the same dog as before. There was more thunder just the other day, and same thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no cowering, whimpering, trying to hide at all, it was that simple. I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non- abusive way of handling dogs WORKS. Wonderfully. Praise. It’s that simple. Juanita "Estel J. Hines"

… read more »

Response:

HOWEDY kwbrown,

I also teach advanced stuff like heeling off-lead, down at a distance, coming when called while running full speed in the other direction, etc. You call that *advanced*?

Well, not compared to you MURDERIN your own DEAD DOG Teena on accHOWENT of you couldn’t brush her withHOWET hurtin and intimidating her. I thought you were the guy who said leashes were abusive tools…

Perhaps compared to your SHOCK collar. and here you are, telling us that heeling off- leash is *advanced*?

What would happen if you had Teena off leash withHOWET a shock collar? She’d run HOWET on you.   Am I to take this to mean that you don’t  teach heeling off-leash from the start?

When do you teach the DROP DEAD command? Many of us do, you know.

That so? You mean, with your shock collar? You CANNOT start a dog off lead with a shock collar on accHOWENT of the dog will RUN HOWET on you when you BURN him.  Using those outmoded and ineffective training models you so scorn.

You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena just a few weeks ago on accHOWENT of you couldn’t stop HURTIN and INTIMIDATING her as you was taught by sindy SADIST mooreon of k-9web.com and tommy sorenson and Master Of Deception blankman and lying frosty dahl, janet boss and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn. "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ’s pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? REMEMBER, kwbrown? Until now, I just thought you were a pompous  windbag – but now, Lee Charles Kelly, I call you a *fraud.*

That so? Seems like you’re the MENTAL CASE who HURTS INTIMIDATES and MURDERS dogs and will do and say ANY THING to DEFEND your alleged RIGHT to HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER dogs as your PALS mentioned above have been doin since DAY WON… REMEMBER, kwbrown? If you’re pawning off simple intermediate obedience work as "advanced" on your adoring public, you’re nothing more than a con artist with an advanced vocabulary and a bad case of logorrhea.

Looks like your FEELINS are HURT. HJM and I come from the very opposite ends of the political spectrum.

You’re both liars dog abusers cowards and active long term incurable mental cases.  I disagree with his style,

You FOLLOWED his advice and MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER? and he has *really* pissed me off more than once.

Well perhaps that’s on accHOWENT of he’s a vulgar lying dog abusing mysoginist and you’re a pathetic lying dog abusing coward?   I’m not sure he’d even set foot in my happily  adopted home, Soviet Canuckistan.  But this  time, I’m with him.

You bums can’t post here abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE on accHOWENT of you’re liars dog abusers cowards and active long term incurable mental cases, as you’re proving right NHOWE. I fully acknowledge that any of his dogs could kick my dog’s butt in a field trial,

That so? HOWE can you say that? Your PAL tommy sorenson aka jack morrison aka joey finnochiario aka dogman is a anonymHOWES lying dog abusing punk thug coward. He HAS NO RECORD of EVER showing or trainin a dog. EVER. ANY WHERE, on accHOWENT of HE’S A anonymHOWES lying dog abusing COWARD. REMEMBER? So, as far as ANY WON here knows, tommy has NEVER EVEN SEEN a dog. REMEMBER? so here’s an offer, you charlatan.

Let’s talk abHOWET you hurtin intimidatin and MURDERIN your own DEAD DOG Teena?  We’ll make it easier.

You can’t post here abHOWET nodoGgamenedMOORE. Come deal with a less-experienced trainer and her off-breeed dog, trained only for hunt tests.  Only to the intermediate level.  Next time you and Fred are out this way for some book signing, prove to me how easy it is to apply your training religion to some *real* work.

Your "REAL WORK" is BASIC stuff for Lee. Five birds.  Two land, two water, one blind. We’ll keep it easy for poor ol’ Fred and keep  everything under 150 yards.

It’d take Lee a few days to train his dog for that. It took you two years and you MURDERED Teena over the same PROBLEM.   We’ll keep it fair and run everything under CKC Senior Hunt rules.

Let’s just talk abHOWET you MURDERIN your own DEAD DOG Teena, before calling Lee a FRAUD. C’mon, Lee Charles Kelley.  Put your absurd theories to some use instead of parading yourself as an expert while, all along, teaching simple commands that should be in most dogs’ vocabularies as "advanced."

Like the DROP DEAD command, kwbrown? Kate and Affinity Easy Sailing JH WCX CGN the FCR

HOWEDY kwbrown,

What do you think the chances are that there can ever be one central and essentially exhaustive source of information regarding dogs? And would having one extensive source even be  that much of a quantum leap forward, given today’s Internet search-engine capabilities? For a very long time, I have fallen back on the K9web.com FAQs,

INDEED? You mean THIS?: "Don’t Let Your Dog Scream. Use Your Hand To Hold His Muzzle Closed And Tell Him To Quit Moaning," cindymooreon. but they seem to have disappeared recently.

Perhaps that’s on accHOWENT of The Puppy Wizard.  I can’t pull them up today.

And you won’t be able t o read Master Of Deception blankman’s viciHOWES web pages pretty soon, either. The breed FAQs were generally strong and there were some good basic behaviour articles. Diane’s Dog-Play site has had lots of great stuff for years, too.

INDEEDY! What a recommendation! Kate

You JUST MURDERED your own DEAD DOG on accHOWENT of THEIR EXXXPERT ADVICE! Here’s HOWE COME: "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ’s pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I’d Call It A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn’t HaveDone It If He Thought Solo Couldn’t Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie. You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER? To Hold His Muzzle Closed And Tell Him To Quit Moaning,"  cindymooreon. Hey, check it out? Here’s our cindy "Don’t Let Your Dog Scream" mooreon’s forced fetch page, the one she refused to discuss and threatened to sue us for quoting from. So here it is in full. Barf warning.

Isn’t that funny?

No. I can microchip dogs without blinking

Yes. You only feel good when you’re hurting something. (and check out the needle guage on those puppies sometime if you haven’t before)

Looks can be deceiving like your pronged spiked pinch choke collar. HOWE can we know what a dog feels? You bums want a new definition for hurt. We got to have broken bones or blistered skin to have hurt. but wuss out at the thought of getting a needle let alone giving it to myself.

No doubt. Sadists and cowards only enjoy inflicting pain. –Cindy

Here’s MOORE reasons why our Gang Of Thugs are EMBARRASSED by their own works. Here’s the post cindymooreon of our faqs page at k9web threatened to sue us for copyright infringement if we quoted it: What is Force Fetching All About? by Cindy Tittle Moore Copyright 1997,1998 by the author; all rights reserved. THE FORCE FETCH Alright! Now you are (finally) ready to force fetch your dog. I repeat, you want to have an experienced person help you out, someone who has already force fetched her own dogs whether for obedience or field. This step in the training entails what is termed avoidance behavior. In a nutshell, the dog is taught how to "turn off" a negative stimulus. He is carefully taught that he has complete control over it. This is a very effective way of teaching, but does require a more astute sense of timing than some other training methods and is very difficult for some people to do, for a variety of reasons. However, if the dog properly knows HOLD at this point, it’s easily done with a minimum of fuss. Return to your quiet starting place, with the dog on a collar and leash in front of you, sitting quietly. Instead of opening his mouth as you have been for the HOLD, put your hand through the dog’s collar (to hold him steady) and with your thumb and forefinger pinch the tip of his ears and say TAKE IT (or FETCH, or whatever you want) Watch his mouth closely — the moment he opens his mouth, pop that dumbbell in, let go of his ear but not the collar, and PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. Do this three or four times per session. When he is opening his mouth in anticipation of the dumbbell, the next step is to hold the dumbbell just past his lips. This next step is for him to move his head forward that inch (or half inch) necessary to get the dumbbell. At this point, he has a pretty good notion that getting that darned thing into his mouth is the way to turn off the ear pinch. Most dogs will lean forward and get it. That’s his second milestone! Praise, praise, praise and … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY kwbrown,

berlin.de: If you’re pawning off simple intermediate obedience work as "advanced" on your adoring public, you’re nothing more than a con artist with an advanced vocabulary and a bad case of logorrhea. I have to not only disagree, but take exception to this. Tara: I’ll have to accept your judgement

long term incurable active drunk and multi substance abuser. IOW, a MENTAL CASE. Like yourself and the rest of your PALS here abHOWETS.  that training certain behaviours is more difficult in NYC than other places –

Seems AA sez it’s a LAME EXXXCUSE SICK PEOPLE USE to BLAME "PEOPE PLACES and THINGS" as what CAUSES a DRUNK to DRINK.  the bagels would certainly make for  a challenging distraction.

ONLY FOR A COUPLE OF MINUTES TILL THE DOG LEARNS NOT TO TAKE IT.  I’ve only visited the city and agree that getting a dog to a point that you had attention heeling on Broadway would be a challenge.

IOW, you’re gonna BLAME "PEOPLE PLACES and THINGS" instead of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for your own FAILURE to understand HOWE to pupperly handle and train a dog. Still:  this man’s "Natural Dog Training" nonsense

Yeah. NONESENSE. is unproven by anyone but himself,

Well, seems that’s your standard EXXXCUSE for dismissing ANY non violent trainer who’s ever posted here abHOWETS. REMEMBER?  and if he’s telling the world that he’s teaching "advanced" topics in dog training with his mumbojumbo,

You mean INSTEAD of MURDERIN dogs like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena? CuriHOWES ain’t it, HOWE COME you MURDER dogs and call Lee and ALL NON VIOLENT TRAINERS FRAUDS and LIARS. REMEMBER?  and that he somehow has the secret to succeeding with dogs,

Yeah. It STARTS with NOT HURTIN and INTIMDATING them like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER, kwbrown? he’s putting one over on people.

You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena. You HURT INTIMIDATED and MURDERED her.  For Pete’s sake:  off-lead heeling is CD-level work!

The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students REPORT achieving that level pryor to 4 months old.  A remote down doesn’t need acres of pastoral fields –

Cut the crap.  it takes patience and slow extension of the distance and circumstances under which the drop is requested.

No it don’t. ANY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students achieve that pryor to 4 months of age. Trainin dogs is EZ if you don’t HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER them like HOWE you done your own DEAD DOG Teena. REMEMBER, kwbrown? You can do this in your apartment hallway.

You think so? He’s never demonstrated the success of his miraculous methods where it counts:  in a competitive ring of any kind, where training is measured against stable benchmarks.

Oh? HOWE abHOWET "MEASURING" Lee’s SUCCESS against YOUR OWN DEAD DOG Teena you HURT INTIMIDATED and MURDERED? If he’s so good, why can’t he go put a CD (at least) on Ol’ Fred, instead of spending his time typing his little heart out (with breaks taken to pester and annoy owners of other dogs who have the misfortune to meet them in the park)?

Perhaps that’s on accHOWENT of the simpletons in the obedience and field trial rings are not the kind of company decent people prefer to keep? And if you don’t believe that this fool is running off at the keyboard, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.

You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Teena on accHOWENT of you couldn’t stop HURTIN and INTIMIDATING her. REMEMBER, kwbrown? Kate and Storm and Fetus Petitus the FCRs

HOWEDY shelly & The Boys, So, any suggestions on how to break the countersurfing habit?

The ONLY advice has been to HURT your dog, marie. With Coda, it was easy,

That so? he just wasn’t overly motivated (or rewarded) by food on the counter.

But you didn’t leave STUFF there for him, either, on accHOWENT of YOU NEVER KNOW when your TRAININ might FAIL. With Bodhi, it’s a different story.

That so?   No matter how many times I tell him "Uh-uh!"  or  "No!" or whatever,

Oh. You mean no matter HOWE many times you VARIABLY REINFORCE the behavior by punishing and scolding him. if there is food (or a pan that once had food in it) on the countertop left where he can reach it AND no one is home, there’s no stopping him.

Right. THAT’S HOWE COME PUNISHMENT FAILS. You’re a mental case. When I am home, even during the night, no one messes with anything.

On accHOWENT of your dogs are AFRAID of you. But, I know that if I were to entrust him in the day while were are at work?  Forget it, all bets are off.

What BETS? You could BET YOUR LIFE your dog will STEAL whatever he can find on accHOWENT of he KNOWS you can’t HURT and INTIMIDATE him if you’re not there to punish him. THAT’S HOWE COME dogs get separation anxiHOWESNESS car sickness and fear of thunder, on accHOWENT of the CON-TROLLER ain’t there to HURT and INTIMIDATE them.   That includes the small trashcan in our bedroom that usually has used tissues or holey socks in it.

Yeah. Your dog might KILL hisself on them like janet boss’s dog nearly done. It also includes hair scruchies & boxes of tissues.

Yeah. On accHOWENT of you hurt and intimidate your dog instead of trainin IT. They all get put out of reach when I go to work.

Of curse. UNLESS you FORGET. Like HOWE your pal bentcajungirl aka perry’s DEAD DOG Maggie ate Gorilla Glue and shit the bed on her.   If not, I figure it’s my own fault for leaving them in his

reach Like bencajungirl aka perry done. when I *know* he’ll most likely get into/destroy them.

That’s on accHOWENT of your dog knows you can’t PUNISH him if you’re not there to catch him IN THE ACT… IOW, you’re a dog abuser / mental case. Shelly & The Boys

"Just Want To Second Jerry’s Method For Dealing With This (Destructive Separation Anxiety). I’ve Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now And It’s Worked ‘EVERY TIME The Very First Time’ – marilyn, Trainer, 33 Years Experience. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aloha Sunny, Just follow the training program to the letter, no matter how insignificant some of the step seem to be and your pupy will be a very well behaved dog in a few days. I would seriously consider backing out of the training classes as they will conflict with the Wit’s End principles. I went the training route first, and still had problems until I found Wits’ End. Now I have two "new and improved" dogs. You won’t be disappointed if you follow the program. Good luck, Hoku

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– To: The Puppy Wizard Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 6:12 PM Aloha Jerry, Just wanted to let you know that the surrogate toy technique is working wonders.  I have not had a shredded sheet for over a week now.  It is nice to be able to leave the bed made and come home to a made bed. Your program is awesome, but you already know that.  Keep up the good work! Hoku Chris Williams writes: "The FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what I’ve always done without thinking of it as "training". New stuff, I’ve used. His anchoring technique erased the last of Mac’s fireworks trauma,"        Engrossing account, Anthony.  Our best to Angel and your family.        A friend, who socializes the kittens I’ve taken from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.        She reports far fewer panic problems than she’s had before. .. Tracy, What worked for me, in just one storm, was to praise the dog after each clap of thunder, telling him he’s a Good Dog! This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.  The next time it thundered, he did not even react at  all–you could not tell it was the same dog as before. There was more thunder just the other day, and same thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no cowering, whimpering, trying to hide at all, it was that simple. I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non- abusive way of handling dogs WORKS. Wonderfully. Praise. It’s that simple. Juanita Until i read the Jerry method of Bark reductioon, it went something like this with our 11 month old puppy "Yoshi" Yoshi: Bark, bark. us: HUSH Youshi. us: Hush Youshi. it stopped when Yoshi got tired barking. We decided to try the Jerry method. :Yoshi:  BARK, BARK. US: GOOD Yoshi, Good Boy, who is it? Yoshi Bark, Bark. US: It’s ok, good boy Yoshi, We know them. Yosh without fail, now stops after we say that. I must say, it is so much more fun, when we can praise him, to deal with things like this. Thanks Jerry

… read more »

Response:

HOWEDY suja, Your posting history will prove you to be a dog abusing mental case. Your own dog Khan broke your arm and attacked and mauled the Malamute you brought in. REMEMBER?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I disagree with some of his current positions.  But you were being very dismissive and, I thought, somewhat egotistical to say that *you* would "cut him some slack". If you don’t understand sarcasm when you see it…. In what ways do you believe that behavioral phenomena are not determined by preceding events or natural laws? Did I say *anything* about behavioral phenomena?  I said that he is a determinist.  In the general context of what I was saying, it essentially means that some things, even when they are the *opinions* of highly educated, intelligent people, can be disagreed with.  He believes a lot of things I don’t agree with.  He could be Albert Einstein, and I would still disagree with those same positions.  You somehow seemed to suggest that it is heresy to disagree with well published, well reputed people. I think that’s what I was getting at.  We’re talking about how to determine the cause of a behavior, and to do so we should either temporarily eliminate anything that’s more complex and look for the simplest answer first before deciding that a more complex answer is the right one.  It seems to me that you, and everyone else who believes in dominance and hierarchy, haven’t done that. No, you are suggesting that we ONLY look at your explanation for certain behaviors.  I have no problems accepting that you have a theory for certain phenomenon, and I have one as well.  At the moment, mine happens to be the more prevalent one.  It seems to work well for me in the context of my everyday interactions with dogs, both mine and others’. Doesn’t mean I am right, and I may well be proven wrong in the long run.   If it happens, it happens.  Until someone offers proof to back up their assertions, I will take it as their opinion. So again, I’m getting bits and pieces.  Nice. You ask for information, I give it to you.  What I am saying is this.  From everyday interaction with dozens of dogs, I’ve observed behavior among dogs that backs up my beliefs.  Dogs that have never seen Khan before in their lives act in a certain manner towards him as do many dogs that have known him for years.  Many of these dogs do not act in the same manner towards any other dogs, regardless of size, age, gender, etc.  For that matter, people who have lots of dog experience (even new ones) tend to make similar observations, so I know it isn’t just me. On rare occasions, certain dogs will act in a manner that is completely the opposite of this, what he considers to be challenging.  Left up to their own devices, it will escalate into a fight – I don’t know how severe, because it has never been allowed to go that far.  Age, gender, size, etc. of these dogs don’t matter either, although they *tend* to be medium to large males that are older than one year.  And generally speaking, I can predict when I can expect trouble. You mean, that’s your belief about what he does.  How do you know that’s what he’s doing or intending to do? Without reading his mind, neither of us do.  At the moment, I do not have an alternate theory that adequately explains all the interactions I see. Yeah, I got that already.  But from what I’ve read so far about your position I don’t think there’s anything I can say that will prove it to you. Thank goodness.  We can let it rest then.  I am perfectly happy with my theories and you’re perfectly happy with yours.  I happen to think you’re wrong, and you think the same of me. I love a happy ending. Suja

Response:

HOWEDY sinofabitch,

Forget everything you know about dogs.

kwbrown would LIKE that. We coulf FORGET she recently MURDERED her own DEAD DOG Teena on accHOWENT of she couldn’t stop HURTIN and INTIMIDATING IT. REMEMBER? Erase your experience from your brain.

kwbrown jerked and choked and locked Teena in a box until she went INSANE, as The Amazing Puppy Wizard warned her she would.  Lee is here to save you from yourself,

janet and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn and tommy sorenson told her to HURT and INTIMIDATE the dog MOORE, after she first started turning on her. ‘coz he’s a Published Author.

kwbrown’s CASE HISTORY of abuse is indellibly inscribed in The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s Archives on Google.   I haven’t had time to reply to much of this thread

That’s WIZE of you, sinofabitch.  (and don’t really have time to be posting now <G),

Right. You can’t post here abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE. but… I find it interesting that Lee has dodged or ignored the issue each time

CITES please? I’ve mentioned that he apparently has little  or no experience in handling/training high- drive working dogs.

You’re a lying dog abusing mental case. REMEMBER, sinofabitch? He also didn’t reply when I asked "exactly what have you trained pet dogs to do?"

Perhaps Lee wasn’t interested in playin grab ass with a lying dog abusing mental case, sinofabitch.  in response to his saying that he has  "only trained pet dogs".

Yeah. Like marilyn and Canis55. REMEMBER?   Last but not least, he claimed that the behaviours I referred to in dogs were the  result of "mishandling"  etc…

Right. It’s all in The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s Archives in your own written words, which YOU DENY. REMEMBER? which I’m trying to figure out exactly who has "mishandled" the wolves, feral dogs, and other wild canids the behaviours have been observed in.

Perhaps you do it right through the ether, eh?: sinofabitch writes: What I have said- repeatedly – is that he took posts from two different people, took pieces of them out of context, cobbled them together, then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly." and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is exactly what he did. The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context, and Jerry’s faked "quote" is downright meaningless. Here’s Jerry’s version   "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My    Right Arm  Over The Lab’s Shoulder,    Grabbed Her Opposite  Foot With My    Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,    Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into    Her Throat  And Said "GRRRR!" And    Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch. Here’s yours;   "I dropped the leash, threw my   right arm over the Lab’s shoulder,   grabbed her opposite foot with my   left hand, rolled her on her side,   leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and   nipped her ear.   –Sara Sionnach

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. "When you get bagged for lying you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY.

He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing.  He didn’t even blink an eye. Janet Boss

I can’t imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can’t remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Here is a video from Fred which I have a few concerns about (and maybe Fred can weigh in if he sees fit), THE SAME "FRED" that johnny would invite to heelp his shelter dogs learn RESPECT. This is a video about Nero being taught to get on a skateboard. http://www.studioonline.com/playvideos.asp?crypt=A7E284B9ABDFCE0F or http://tinyurl.com/389al In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his head all around. I’m not SHORE why he’s doing that. If he’s doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much "experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how nationally "respected" they are/were. If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around because he is happy and for no other reason, well, then, never mind. I’ve just never seen this kind of behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can explain what would cause a dog to move his head like that. Here’s a other: http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh Even your PALS the "DOG LOVERS" on the abuse groups were HOWEtraged by those stunts. "I’d call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won’t touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller. "I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I’ll state my opinion once and won’t defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we’ve come a long way since then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she’s been rewarded for coming, but she’s never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming. Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell?" "It is by muteness that a dog becomes so utterly  beyond value. With him, words play no torturing  Like a confessor Priest? Don’t bet your dog won’t  tell on you… Their behaviors reflect our words,  actions and training quirks. Jerry HOWE, The  Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~  )  

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe all day today, I’m convinced that the shaking is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I’ll continue keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything up, I don’t see symptoms of anything neurological– and the vet agrees. –Lia

"Things are beginning to get much worse day by day and the vets seem unable to help. http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV" THAT’S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and ASYLUM ESCAPEES. while walking backwards

Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what it felt like to me when I got shocked by Hope’s collar. It felt like a bomb going off in my hand and forearm.

how effective are these electronic fences in keeping a dog on a property???? Some run through it. Others get shocked and become too scared to go out in the yard anymore. Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog, because the dog got caught right in the path of the shock and will now not go near his person, won’t go outside. Just hides under a desk in the house.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And Sally responded: Who said that?  I would never do or recommend that, and neither would most of the regulars on here. Sally Hennessey I’ve posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so. Take it out of context and you’d think I was flinging puppies across the room! here’s what I said (keep in mind that we’re talking about a 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):  A small scruff shake is appropriate if he’s very persistant.

  Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make   it  clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily   misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff   of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?   I think I’d phrase it something like "if the puppy is very   persistant, it  can be appropriate to take hold of the   loose skin at the back of the neck and give a slight   shake to the *skin*".   Janet’s not talking about actually shaking   the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is   abusive." THAT’S INSANE. AIN’T IT. So’s this: Here’s professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research at UofWI, marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation," dermer: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy,  "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," … read more »

Response:

You mean the TENSION caused by withholding the bribes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you think causes the "puppy zippy zoomies"?  You don’t see that as a way to release emotional tension? I’d like to talk more about "puppy zoomies."  I’ve never read about it or discussed it, so my theories are based on observation alone. However, it does appear to me that your statement is true.  Puppy zoomies seem to be an outlet for overloads. The most common zoomies seem to occur when the puppy has been playing hard, working himself up into a state of over-excitement, and especially in the evenings if he’s been cooped up all day. I had a private class this week, with one of the most motivated puppies I’ve ever seen.  If you had a treat, he would do anything anything anything to get it, and was bright enough to pick up on what was required very quickly.  He never lost focus.  Even in the breaks, he was all "what else? what else do you want me to do?"  So for him, the session was intense and fast-paced. At one point when I was demonstrating something with him, Tony just started the zoomies.  It was the first time I’d seen a pup do it out of the blue, without physical stimulation.  He zoomed about 3 times, then came and sat in front of me, all ready to work again. So yes, it seems to be a way to release tension. Canine Action Dog Trainer http://www.canineaction.com My Kids, My Students, My Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html

Response:

HOWEDY tommy, [] (They’re also based on flawed and outmoded theories of behavior.)

INDEEDY. There’s sufficient documentation DISCREDITING every thing these simpletons who choke shock beat and murder dogs think they know in the post below. Of course, Moonbeam Man neglects to mention that, even with all the supposed "flaws," these "outmoded theories" STILL WORK GREAT!

That’s on accHOWENT of you LIKE to hurt intimdiate and murder dogs, tommy. If your stinkin pain fear force and intimidation WORKED you wouldn’t NEED to MURDER dogs. Would you, tommy. You like to BLAME THE DOG when you can’t TRAIN IT, tommy. The Amazing Puppy Wizard and Lee blame the training method, tommy. And they’re much less filing!

Yeah. Meanwhile, you can’t post here abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE. He also refuses to compare the RESULTS of his "natural" training with the results obtained by "flawed" training, based on "outmoded theories."

We GOT the RESULTS, tommy. YOU MURDER DOGS. The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World REPORT 100% TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CON-TROLL, NEARLY INSTANTLY. You call their CASE HISTORY DATA, LIES. REMEMBER, tommy? And that’s not by freakin’ accident either.  ;)

Right. It’s on accHOWENT of you’ll do and say anything to defend your alleged right to jerk choke shock beat and murder dogs. Handsome Jack Morrison

There ain’t a trainer or behaviorist in the Whole Wild World who’ll dispute The Amazing Puppy Wizard on accHOWENT of THAT would be tantamHOWENT to PROFESSIONAL SUICIDE: HOWEDY William,

Help! My 2.5 year old Lab has started defecating in our dining room (she has been going in the same spot)!

HOWEsbreaking is INSTINCTIVE. The first time I wrote it off to an accident.

Dogs seldom have accidents. If your dog is having HOWEsbreaking problems it’s on accHOWENT of he’s SICK or he’s MAKING A STATEMENT that he’s UNHAPPY. The second time I wrote it off to the fact I’m  travelling for work again but this has been going on for almost four weeks!

That could be HOWE COME he’s UNHAPPY. Either THAT, or he’s SICK. Of curse, he COULD be UNHAPPY abHOWET LOTS of STUFF goin on in his life. My wife, and kids, are ready to kill the dog!

LIKE THAT, William. JUST LIKE THAT. She is a great dog otherwise and spends a lot of time with the family.

HOWE many times a day do they have to correct her by just telling her "NO!"? That could be the only problem, William. Any suggestions????

You can CURE ALL behavior problems NEARLY INSTANTLY if you follow the instructions in your FREE copy of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com. Thanks in advance!

You won’t be gettin no advice from the liars dog abusers cowards and active long term incurable MENTAL CASES you’re askin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill HOWEDY Professor Dermer, Has your vet considered the chronic ear infection is a symptom of adverse reaction to food (ARF)? Chronic infections and "idiopathic" DIS-EASES are most often associated with STRESS, professor. It’s one of the stonger signals of an ARF condition. Could be. But that’s less likely than a STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME as you’ve seen in your own dog. ARF?!! https://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/arf-l.html Animal Reinforcement Forum The Amazing Puppy Wizard just took a look see. That’s some pretty brutal stuff they’re talkin, Professor. The Amazing Puppy Wizard though you’d LEARNED MUCH MOORE than THAT in the five years you’ve been studying NON PHYSICAL CON-TROLL of all behaviors using the CASE HISTORY DATA in The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s Archives on Google. ARF is a mailing list for students, researchers, behaviorists, and practitioners across the globe interested in animal training and management issues. Perhaps you’ll introduce The Amazing Puppy Wizard? They’re a bunch of IMBECILES who choke and shock and bribe and can’t achieve 100% NEARLY INSTANT NON PHYSICAL CON-TROLL. ARF’s primary focus is on reinforcement INSTEAD OF EFFECTIVE CONDITIONING. "Reinforcement NEVER ends" on accHOWENT of the dog will NOT do the behaviors when you’re NOT REINFORCING or MANAGING IT. and behavior analysis applied to animals, You’ve SEEN the ANAL-ytic DATA The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students REPORT RIGHT HERE. as well as the research and scientific principles that describe such procedures. Yeah. They was talkin abHOWET dr. sidman and karen pryor… Seems The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World NEGATES their malarkey, Professor. YOU CAN’T ARGUE WITH THE DATA. Also, ARF focuses on ANY management procedures/tools beyond those just described by operant procedures, Your SCIENTIFIC STUDIES PROVES your "operant procedures" FAIL CONSISTENTLY, Professor: Dr. George VonHilsheimer writes in "Is there a SCIENCE of BEHAVIOR?": "Valette 1966 is a complete trivialization of scientific findings. It overstates the case for reinforcement theory. No careful researcher would contend that operant techniques CAN ANY THING MORE than modify SHORT TERM BEHAVIOR in a highly controlled and limited environment with a large number of skillful experimenters. Certainly the most elaborate studies have shown that the withdrawal or temprary inefficiency of the reward system is immediately followed by CESSATION of the programmed behavior. In fortunate contrast to this depressing paper is the research reported by Whelan (1966) who makes the simple but profHOWEND caveat that "It is only through CORRECT, EFFICIENT APPLICATION (of operant principles) that children’s behavor can be changed to the extent that they can subsequently contribute to the REAL WORLD in which they live." " "The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior Never Change, Or They’d Not Be Scientific And Would Not Obtain Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results For All Handler’s And All Dogs, As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual," The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) Dr. Von continues: "Whelan illustrates the simple nature or the learning process by referring to Ferster’s engaging study of two three year old chimpanzees taught mathematics through simple procedures. Whelan carries this EVIDENCE a step futher by pointing HOWET it’s applicability to disturbed children." A Dog Is A Dog As A Child Is A Child As A Kat Is A Kat. All Critters Only Respond In Predictable Innate, Normal, Natural, Instinctive, Reflexive, Ways To Circumstances And Situations Of Their Environments Which We Create For Them. ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture." We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT. In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS FAILURE MEANS DEATH. SAME SAME SAME SAME, For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS. Dr. Von continues: "If chimpanzees CAN LEARN mathematics through step by step learning AT THEIR OWN PACE, reinforced primarily by CORRECT ANSWERS rather than with "fruit loops and rasins", we can assume that even developmentally RETARDED or CONfHOWENDED children CAN LEARN as well. Moreover, Whelan makes the EXXXTREMELY important point that while most teachers assume that learning takes place verbally, primarily it is a non verbal process.. Unfortunately Whelan limits himself to the problem that "teachers must not only modify or remove specific deviant behaviors, but must also develop socially acceptable behavior patterns in the classroom and classroom conditioned goals, NOT LEARNING. Other researchers have emphasized the importance ofadult behaviors in conditioning classroom behavior. An EXXXCELLENT review of this researchshowd that tantrum behavior, excessive crawling and dependency, isolated play, passivity, spelling failure, and other problem behaviorscan be managed by altering habitual adult responses to children (Harris, Wolf and Baer, 1964) . Such RESEARCHholds GREATER PROMISE in that alteration of the conditioning social environment seems to provide more STABLE and LASTING CHANGES than "M and M’s". Moreover, a great deal of work has been done developing EFFECTIVE techniques of behavior modificaton through the conditioning social environment of peers (Hartup, 1964). These directions would seem more PRODUCTIVE than a simple minded trainslation of the Skinner cage to the classroom. Skinner (1963) pointed HOWET that operant techniques can "be utilized fully ONLY IF we REDEFINE the GOALS of education and the CONDITIONS in the educational environment under which those goals may be reached… (through) a DIFFERENT KIND of educational research which is much more closely concerned with the

… read more »

Response:

HOWEDY Lee,

.. You see them as normal, I don’t.

To say the least. It’d heelp if you was familiar with suja’s postin history. Her own fear aggressive man shy dog Khan broke her arm pulllin her DHOWEN behind trying to attack a innocent critter. Khan attacked an opposite sex Malamute suja RESCUED from the P-HOWEND and took them both to the animal HOWEspital and returned the bitch to the P-HOWEND with a record of dog fighting. The dog got LUCKY. Next day she was "adopted" by a real dog lover and was eatin HOWETA the same BHOWEL as the pre existing HOWES bitch eats from with NO problem. ALL behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. I see them as the result of bad training or mishandling.

AS STATED and PROVEN by the RESULTS The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World. When dogs are trained the natural way you almost never see "dominant" behaviors.

EXXXACTLY. That’s HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREEE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World REPORT CURING ALL temperament and behavior problems NEARLY INSTANTLY. Suja:What do you mean by "dominant" behaviors?

BWEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!! Lee doesn’t SEE "dominant" behaviors on accHOWENT of THEY DON’T EXIST. ALL aggression is FEAR. ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. suja:  When my dog goes to the dog park for example, certain dogs will crawl in front of him and give belly.  Others will muzzle lick.  Happens when he’s walking around, minding his own business, and when he’s sitting down.  So, the owners of these dogs trained/mishandled their dogs into being submissive?

Yeah. That’s correct. That happens from your SOCIALIZATION and bullshit like leah’s PAW PATROL in puppy class. I haven’t observed you or the other dogs first-hand

You’ll see it all in her POSTING HISTORY, Lee. suja likes to jerk and choke her dog on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar on accHOWENT of it ain’t CRUEL like a CHOKE collar. so I can only surmise.

suja HURTS and INTIMIDATES her dogs and has POSTED HER PREDICTABLE RESULTS.  My feeling from reading your description and  relating it back to my own observations about similar behaviors I’ve seen is that the "submissive" dogs you’ve described are probably picking up some kind of emotional energy from your dog that makes them uncomfortable.

suja’s fear aggressive man shy abused dog Khan has a very long history of fear aggression. THAT’S HOWE COME.  I can’t pretend to know the source of their comfort levels or of the energy they’re picking up from your dog, but I think it would be a mistake to equate what’s going on in your example with "normal pack behavior", since as far as I can tell none of these dogs have  formed a pack with your dog.

And NORMAL PACKS don’t JERK and CHOKE their pack members on pronged spiked pinch choke collars. And onc [sic] you understand the principles of how dogs *really* learn you begin to see "dominant" behavior for what it really is — emotional frustration.

EXXXACTLY. But HOWER MENTAL CASES are likeWIZE emotionally FRUSTRATED. THAT’S HOWE COME they HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER dogs and LIE abHOWET it. suja: What does learning have to do with "dominant" behavior?

ALL AGGRESSION IS LEARNED.  Specifically,

INDEEDY. I am asking about what it means in dog-dog interactions. Humans form social hierarchies and when we interact with our dogs we do so in ways that reflect our mindset about how *we* learned to adjust our behaviors to live in the human world.

HOWER DOG LOVERS operate HOWETA FEAR and GREED, the same same as they TEACH their dogs.   Even though dogs are domesticated they still retain many of the instincts, impulses, and reflexes left over from when they lived in the wild.

A dog is a dog. Many of those instincts, etc., are geared for living in a natural environment, not in a human household.  If we don’t honor, understand, and respect their natural way of doing things in how we raise them, we unintentionally create emotional tension, even though the dog may seem to be "well- behaved".

INDEEDY. That’s the PREDICTABLE RESULT of forced CON-TROLL and REPRESSION of INSTINCTIVE NORMAL NATURAL REFLEXIVE INNATE BEHAVIORS. That tension will carry over to their interactions  with other dogs.

All behaviors are the same same same, they’re just wearin different clothes. Look, even in the more rigid social structure of a wolf pack (and a great deal of what we "know" about wolves comes from observations made about their behavior in a sanctuary, where the stress level is much higher than it would be if they lived naturally, in the wild) emotional stress is both the result of not hunting and as a preparation for it.  When they hunt together they’re in a state of "flow", which is a form of consciousness and learning in humans that is just now being looked into and researched.

Right. That’s HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy Wizard teaches that in the preliminary EXXXERCISES in HIS FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com I don’t know if this is helpful,

HOWER DOG LOVERS don’t have the INTELLECT to HOWEtwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog even after you and The Amazing Puppy Wizard and all HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World who REPORT their 100% CONSISTENT NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS RIGHT HERE told them HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR FREE, to boot. HOWER DOG LOVERS call them LIARS, like HOWE they done you too, Lee.  but here’s part of an outline of topics covered in an upcoming seminar being given by Kevin Behan: 1.) Kevin’s background and how he always worked with the "one-out-of-a-hundred-problem" dog, which afforded him the most vivid window into a dog’s internal workings.

LikeWIZE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2.) Review of the current models of behavior, learning and training: How they don’t add up. Examples of everyday things that dogs do which contradict the mainstream theories of behavior and learning [association, repetition, mimicry, and trial and error]. 3.) What is a dog?  Why did dog evolve from wolf? 4.) Proposal of a new Model: behavior as an expression of emotion. 5.) Redefinition of behavior and learning: An  examination of the number one motive and reinforcement of all animal and canine behavior, resolution of Unresolved Emotion (inner stress). What Pavlov really discovered. Most people don’t see their dogs as being  stressed unless the dog is showing severe  behavioral problems.  I see almost *all* behavior as a manifestation of a dog’s resolution of some kind of inner emotional tension.

PRECISELY. THAT’S HOWE COME HOWER DOG LOVERS CALL YOU and Kevin and The Amazing Puppy Wizard and all HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students LIARS. Does it all make SENSE, NHOWE? "The leash is on her as we speak, however, I must literally DRAG her around w/ stiffened legs." be useful for some..) HOWEDY Mental Cases,

I did react to the way I was raised.

INDEEDY.  You’ve become MENTAL CASES. The fruit don’t fall far from the fruitcake.                      ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE                          CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.         Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."              We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions                     And GET BACK What We TAUGHT. You’re abusers. You choke shock and intimidate your dogs just like HOWE you abuse and teach your kids.                   A Dog Is A Dog As A Kat Is A Kat                            As A Birdie Is A Birdie                             As A Child Is A Child                  As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES. And now I think my lack of cuddling, and loving to my daughter

This ain’t abHOWET HEELIN, this is abHOWET DEFENDING your RIGHT to HURT and INTIMIDATE. S-HOWENDS like gwen honey got a bad case of the "POOR MEEE’S" again. has caused her to overindulge in that since with grandson.

Looks like gwen honey’s dyslexia caused her to jusxtapose a comma. Just wanna be accurate.       "The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior                                  Never Change,          Or They’d Not Be Scientific And Would Not Obtain              Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results                                 For All Handler’s                                   And All Dogs,                              NEARLY INSTANTLY,   As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE            WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual,"                          The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ )   I talked to her last night. She can’t even leave the room without him having a fit.

Separation anxiHOWESNESS is CAUSED by the CON-TROLLER not BEIN IN CON-TROLL, not being alone. The fearful dog child or adult has NO SELF CONFIDENCE, on accHOWENT of they’re been MANAGED and never LEARNED SELF CON-TROLL.  He has to be with her 24/7 by the sound of it.

That’s very endearing, but the FACT is, it’s CAUSED BY MISHANDLING and OVER CON-TROLL, not fear of being alone.  He won’t let her out of his sight.

Separation anxiHOWESNESS can be CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY 100% of the … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY Lee,

.. You see them as normal, I don’t.

LikeWIZE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Humans form social hierarchies and when we interact with our dogs we do so in ways that reflect our mindset about how *we* learned to adjust our behaviors to live in the human world. Even though dogs are domesticated they still retain many of the instincts, impulses, and reflexes left over from when they lived in the wild. Many of those instincts, etc., are geared for living in a natural environment, not in a human household. If  we don’t honor, understand, and respect their natural way of doing things in how we raise them, we unintentionally create emotional tension, even though the dog may seem to be "well-behaved". That tension will carry over to their interactions with other dogs. Look, even in the more rigid social structure of a wolf pack (and a great deal of what we "know" about wolves comes from observations made about their behavior in a sanctuary, where the stress level is much higher than it would be if they lived naturally, in the wild) emotional stress is both the result of not hunting and as a preparation for it.  When they hunt together they’re in a state of "flow", which is a form of consciousness and learning in humans that is just now being looked into and researched. I don’t know if this is helpful, but here’s part of an outline of topics covered in an upcoming seminar being given by Kevin Behan: 1.) Kevin’s background and how he always worked with the "one-out-of-a-hundred-problem" dog, which afforded him the most vivid window into a dog’s internal workings. 2.) Review of the current models of behavior, learning and training: How they don’t add up. Examples of everyday things that dogs do which contradict the mainstream theories of behavior and learning [association, repetition, mimicry, and trial and error]. 3.) What is a dog?  Why did dog evolve from wolf? 4.) Proposal of a new Model: behavior as an expression of emotion. 5.) Redefinition of behavior and learning: An examination of the number one motive and reinforcement of all animal and canine behavior, resolution of Unresolved Emotion (inner stress). What Pavlov really discovered. Most people don’t see their dogs as being stressed unless the dog is showing severe behavioral problems. I see almost *all* behavior as a manifestation of a dog’s resolution of some kind of inner emotional tension.

That’s IT in a nutshell. INTRO TO WITS’ END DOG TRAINING MANUAL  George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D. F.R.S.H. Several years ago one of my old students telephoned to me and asked me what I knew about Doggie Do Right, a device to cause your neighbor’s dog to stop barking. I had not heard of the device, nor its inventor, Jerry Howe, but I telephoned, read his website, and told my graduate that I thought the device was worth a trial – indeed I shut up the dogs in my neighborhood by turning on Jerry’s supersonic device. After all we all know that dogs respond to whistles humans cannot hear, so why not respond to "attaboy" sounds which humans cannot hear. My student lived far from my Florida homestead, so he tried it on the three incredibly savage, hyperactive and noisy dogs who lived behind a tall fence just 3 feet back of his bedroom. Hot rats! The device worked, Andy got his sleep and I didn’t think much of the matter again. A few months ago I had new neighbors on each side of my house, four of them, all with noisy unshuttupable dogs. Argh! So I foned Andrew in Virgina, received the intelligence that his neighbors dogs were still quiet, and then I foned Jerry Howe, the inventor of Doggie Do Right, who came to visit me. Merlin walked into my office. Jerry is a slender fellow with a belly button lenghth grey beard tapering down his chest. I liked him immediately, and I applied his instrument to the neighborhood again which again became silent. It occured to me that if this ultrasonic field worked with dogs that we ought at least to ask the question, what happens to humans in range of the device??? I asked Jerry to give me a list of customers and began inquiring among them. One thing became immediately evident. The Doggie Do Right not only shuts up your neighbors’ dogs, it calms and modifies your husband’s behavior. Holey Moley, Captain Marvel, this device has major potential. In the meantime Jerry gave me a copy of his Wits End Dog Training Manual. I was delighted. He also introduced me to the world of professional dog trainers some of whom even have Ph.D.s in psychology. This was not such a delight as it appeared that none of these luminaries had actually read Skinner, Lazarus or other fountains of wisdom in psychology. Indeed, it seemed as though they knew very little about the laws of behavior at all! Punishment and confrontation seemed to be their major stock in trade. Well, if you go to my website, www.drbiofeedback.com you can read of the career of Sam Corson, I.P. Pavlov’s last student. Sam demonstrated that rehabilitation of hyperactive dogs can easily and readily be done using TLC, tender loving care is at the root of the scientific management of doggies. Pavlov told us so 100 years ago. So what are these degreed morons doing punishing dogs, and shouting "NO" into their doggie faces? If you pick up B.F.Skinner’s last book, CUMULATIVE RECORD, included in it is an essay by Keller Breland and Maryann Breland entitled THE MISBEHAVIOR OF ORGANISMS. Skinner deliberately included his students’ chapter to emphasize that you cannot manage the behavior of animals unless you take into consideration 1. the animal’s evolutionary niche (who is the animal?); 2. the animal’s personal history (who is the animal?) and 3, the instinctive repetoire of the animal (who is the animal?) and 4. the personality of the animal (who is the animal?). The Brelands moved far from the white rat. "Thirty-eight species, totaling over 6,000 individual animals, have been conditioned, and we have dared to tackle such unlikely subjects as reindeer, cockatoos, raccoons, porpoises, and whales. " Jerry Howe spends most of his times with dogs, but he has learned Pavlov’s lesson well. Dogs are individuals, they are individual DOGS, and they respond most directly and immediately to love and tender loving care. Read with pleasure, and then go love your dog. George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. Who’s Who Honoree since 1983 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– To: Andrew Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:08 AM Andrew, Jerry Howe is here as I type and we have decided to create a human mellowing branch and to sell the marvel mystery device.   Here is my first draft. What do you think? George Friends and colleagues: A couple of years ago I became interested in Doggy Do Right (DDR) a sonic device which inhibits barking in your neighbors’ yappy dogs.  I tested the instrument and became pleased at the silence in our neighborhood. I perused the manual for the DDR which has significant guidance for loving your own dog so that the wee beast no longer leaps up on you, howls, whines, tears up your shoes, escapes, digs holes, spins around, throws up in the car, eats paper, self-mutilates, fears thunder, suffers when you go to the store and don’t take him, and all the other ills and behavior problems to which the domesticated dog is prone. Jerry Howe, the inventor of the DDR, understands doggy behavior so well he might well have been a student of Sam Corson (Pavlov’s last student who fixed hyperactive dogs, and started our profession, as well as the profession of "Pet Facilitated Therapy"). It occured to me that we might put ourselves out of work.  If a sonic device can mellow hyperactive dogs, why wouldn’t it do so for hyperactive kids and neurotic adults? So, I am inviting a few friends and colleagues to join me in forming a company, which will lease BABY BE GOOD; HAPPY BOY; SWEET LITTLE GIRL; MAMA BE MELLOW; PAPA BE STRONG – these are just first pass names for the device in its several adjustments.  Jerry Howe, genius inventor says you have to refine the adjustment for . More than a thousand owners agree that DOGGY DO RIGHT happifies the  dogs next door so they don’t bark.  DOGGY DO RIGHT also happifies the dog in your home so that she doesn’t do all the unwanted, unpleasant things that dogs often do. AND!!!  DOGGY DO RIGHT happifies the humans in your house so that they are more mellow, happy, quiet and not so dratted obsessive and angry. Problem here.  Is this therapy?  If so the poor little silently singing device needs $4,000,000 to do an FDA study. THANK GOD!  IT ISN’T THERAPY! It is the same effect that Baroque music has on emotion, learning, behavior and memory.  Baroque music mellows and enhances and so does DOGGY DO RIGHT. Of course, these wonderful results have to be proved, by acceptable means. Jerry, don’t think I sent this to you.  A remarkable success for DDR – I keep wanting to call it, Doggie Be Good, DBG. Maybe we ought to try it as an alternate name!  Set up your own competition. Fondly, George —– Original Message —– To: George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D. Cc: I have to agree with George. I found out about this and asked George to look into it. Got good results, so I bought one. I have 6 LOUD dogs outside my back window, chained up all the time, less than 50 feet behind the house. They used to keep me up nights until I bought the DDR machine.  Now, quiet. Yes, they bark when someone gets too close at odd hours, but then they stop. Used to be they would bark for hours. (Their owner must wonder what happened, I called the cops

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Response:

HOWEDY leah, EXXXPLAIN to Lee HOWE COME that RECENT GRADUATE STUDENT Rottie you been trainin since 10 weeks MURDERED a little DEAD DOG in that park when his PRAY DRIVE suddenly KICKED IN?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not necessarily.  In some cases *always* reinforcing a behavior, every single time, produces a stronger likelihood of reliability *and* intensity, whereas using a variable reinforcement schedule in such cases actually *reduces* the relibility and intensity of the behavior. I have one word for you.  Gambling. Canine Action Dog Trainer http://www.canineaction.com My Kids, My Students, My Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html

Response:

HOWEDY sinofabitch,

Actually, you should *always* let the dog win,  Why?

You mean HOWE COME. That would take most of the fun out if it  for all three of my dogs-they don’t want to "win" the object, they want to TUG.

Yeah. That makes a lotta sense. And a dog who always wins will also be more likely to bring the object back to you for another game,

Of curse.   You shouldn’t be playing tug with your dog,   IMO, unless the dog has been TAUGHT to   give the object back to hand on command,

That’s a EXXXCELLENT way to TEACH it, sinofabitch. Here’s a 100% NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Student doin the whole nine yards in WON fell swoop: Hi, Jerry. I’m not sure that I’m a 100% convert, or that I agree with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this manual … BUT … we had "come" down pat in a few reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber ball at my feet on command. He’s still not perfect (just a pup, after all, and he’s stubborn enough to want to push and test me a little bit more). For what it’s worth, I can see (as no doubt you have) how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even if that was the only method that would work, I’d live with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that. (Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively, tho’). Best, ben as well as to drop it and take it on command.

The EZiest way to teach a dog to TAKE sumpthin is to try to KEEP IT FROM HIM. THAT’S HOWE COME your dogs eat garbage and swallow STUFF they steal.   If you haven’t taught those things as an integral part of tug games, and/or if you can’t be sure that  the dog will bring the object back to you, you’ve done it wrong as far as I’m concerned.

Yeah. But you’re a lying dog abusing punk thug coward active long term incurable mental case. And no tugging allowed on the leash, clothes, or body parts.

Right. Leashes ain’t intended to be chewed or stepped on.   As far as the leash is concerned, I disagree.

Yeah, but you’re a MENTAL CASE. REMEMBER?  If you’ve taught tug correctly from the beginning- which is as a game that includes/incorporates "Take it", "Leave it", "Pick it up", "Drop", and "Give" – there’s no reason not to use the leash in certain circumstances.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s leash costs over thirty dollars and is INTENDED to last at least ten years of professional use, until the swivel is worn so thin there ain’t no justification to keep it. Then it can be used by a non professonal handler for many years to come.   For example, MANY agility competitors routinely use braided slip leads to go to and from the ring, and allow the dogs to tug on them before and after runs.

The dogs attack their leads on accHOWENT of you choke them.  I do that both with my Jack Russell and with my lurcher.

You choke and shock every dog.  For another example,

You also attack and throw them to the grHOWEND and grHOWEL into their throat and and bite them on their ear to teach them HOWE to walk NICE on your pronged spiked pinch choke collar on their FIRST LESSON with you. REMEMBER? Of curse, you’ll DENY your own written words again, as you always dog. you miserable lyin dog abusing mental case. I have specifically and deliberately TAUGHT my Jack Russell to grab her leash – any leash, not just the agility going-to-the-ring one –

Yeah. On accHOWENT of you can’t stop her from doin it on accHOWENT of your dog DOES it on accHOWENT of you CHOKE her. and tug/shake it as a displacement activity

She’s doin it in SELF DEFENSE, you mental case. when she feels threatened or challenged by another dog,

Like when she knows you’ll HURT her for fighting. THAT’S HOWE COME she flashes back on your lead, sinofabitch.  sees a buddy at the park, wants to go after prey, or is excited and/or impatient to participate in an activity (running agility, going to ground, and so forth).

IOW, ANY TIME YOU GOTTA CHOKE HER.   It’s FAR preferable to have her tugging   and focused on the leash –

No it ain’t. That’s a pretty difficult PROBLEM, especially if it’s a attack dog you’re workin with. and therefore on me –

THAT’S INSANE. The dog is totally taken up with the leash, you’re the furthest thing from her mind.  than jumping, lunging, and boinkybarking.

IOW, you’ve allHOWED WON HOWETA CON-TROLL behavior to replace a other, on accHOWENT of you can’t CON-TROLL your dog withHOWET CHOKIN or SHOCKING HIM: Sarah F.

He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing.  He didn’t even blink an eye. Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/

I can’t imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can’t remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Jerking choking and shockin and lockin dogs in boxes and ignoring their cries makes their dogs go "EWWWW" but they don’t NOTICE EXXXCEPT to spray BINACA in their eyes and jerk and choke them on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shock and spray MOORE aversives in their faces. Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog’s been sprayed in the face and the dog won’t know HOWE COME IT was MACED?  My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.

They’re DUMB ANIMALS these MENTAL CASES HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER. sinofabitch writes: What I have said- repeatedly – is that he took posts from two different people, took pieces of them out of context, cobbled them together, then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly." and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is exactly what he did. The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context, and Jerry’s faked "quote" is downright meaningless. Here’s Jerry’s version   "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My    Right Arm  Over The Lab’s Shoulder,    Grabbed Her Opposite  Foot With My    Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,    Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into    Her Throat  And Said "GRRRR!" And    Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch. Here’s yours;   "I dropped the leash, threw my   right arm over the Lab’s shoulder,   grabbed her opposite foot with my   left hand, rolled her on her side,   leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and   nipped her ear.   –Sara Sionnach

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. "When you get bagged for lying you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And Sally responded: Who said that?  I would never do or recommend that, and neither would most of the regulars on here. Sally Hennessey I’ve posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so. Take it out of context and you’d think I was flinging puppies across the room! here’s what I said (keep in mind that we’re talking about a 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):  A small scruff shake is appropriate if he’s very persistant.

  Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make   it  clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily   misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff   of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?   I think I’d phrase it something like "if the puppy is very   persistant, it  can be appropriate to take hold of the   loose skin at the back of the neck and give a slight   shake to the *skin*".   Janet’s not talking about actually shaking   the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is   abusive." THAT’S INSANE. AIN’T IT. So’s this: Here’s professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research at UofWI, marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation," dermer: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy,  "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p. BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it.         The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{}TPW ; ~  }   P.S.  Contacting Dr. P: Please note that due to the large number of requests I receive, I can no longer give free, personal advice on problems related to dog training and behavior. In order for me to give such advice we would have to "talk" about the problem at length. That is, I would need detailed … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY tommy, [] This will do a number of beneficial things for overall behavior, and can even be used with some dogs to cure aggression!

INDEEDY, AS STATED in your FREE copy of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com Or…with some dogs,

A dog is a dog, tommy. REMEMBER?  e.g., very dominant dogs,

You mean, OPPOSITIONAL dogs, tommy? it *may* make them even more dominant

That’s GOOD, tommy. ALL aggression is FEAR. Teachin the dog to be DOMINANT would BUILD CONFIDENCE and make the FEARFUL dog FEARLESS and therefore, SAFE, on accHOWENT ALL aggression is FEAR, tommy. THAT’S HOWE COME real dog trainers DON’T HURT INTIMIATED BRIBE and WITHOLD attention and affection and they NEVER give "REWARDS" on accHOWENT of the REWARD is IN THE WORK, the satisfaction of PACK DRIVE, tommy. and actually add to your problems.

ONLY if you HURT and INTIDATE the dog, tommy. ALL aggression is FEAR. REMEMBER, tommy? So, if you have a very dominant dog,

You mean a FEARFUL OPPOSITIONAL dog, tommy. Dominant dogs do not FEAR THINGS, as your lying abusing punk thug coward mental case pal culprit aka kelly metta just detailed in her post on her "dominant" fear aggressive dogs and HOWE their roles are changin as the formerly hyper fear aggressive Lola learned to DEFEND HERSELF and has NHOWE cowered Manu and he’s taen the role of "protector" aka the MOORE FEARFUL member of the pack, tommy.  and you don’t want to take *any* chances,

RIGHT. THAT’S HOWE COME real trainers don’t JERK and CHOKE dogs on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shock and spray avesives in their faces. REMEMBER, tommy? IMO,

Your opinion is that of a anyonymHOWES vulgar lying dog abusing punk thug coward homophobe mysoginist Sadist who beats dogs to HOWEsbreak them, according to your own posted words. REMEMBER, tommy? But of curse, THAT was only to SAVE ITS LIFE on accHOWENT of you don’t have the INTELLECT to HOWEtwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog even after  Lee, his friends Canis55 and Brad Parker Marilyn Robert Crim, Misty, Disciple Paulie and The Amazing Puppy Wizard and all HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World tol you HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR FREE, to boot. You call them LIARS. Like HOWE you done Lee. REMEMBER, tommy? you should stay away from tug.

Unless you’re tuggin on your pronged spiked pinch choke collar. Oh, EXXXCUSE The Amazing Puppy Wizard. You PREFER the slip choke collar on accHOWENT of it won’t fall apart when you suddenly jerk and release it to teach your dogs to TRUST you so you don’t gotta MURDER them. REMEMBER, tommy? Especially if you’re a dog novice.

Yeah. None of the METHODS we’re discussin will stand alone, tommy. I’ll also add my usual caveat to *retriever* people

Retriever people like your pal kwbrown who JUST MURDERED her DEAD DOG Teena, thanks to your advice, tommy? Of curse, you didn’t do it all alone, you had heelp from Master Of Deception blankman, sindy SADIST MOOREON and lying frosty dahl, along with the aid of her in person real life shock collar trainer who was the last dog abusing mental case Teena bit on accHOWENT of she MURDERED her. who have designs on *competing* one day

Like kwbrown. in hunt tests or field trials, or who intend to hunt with their dogs — avoid playing tug like you would avoid someone with a dozen sticks of dynamite strapped to his waist.

That’s INSANE, tommy. Playing teaches dogs to work together as a pack, REMEMBER, tommy? There’s NO relationship between biting on attack sleeve or tug, with biting on a object the dog is asked to pick up. DOGS AIN’T STUPID, tommy. REMEMBER? They HOWEtwit you constantly. Handsome Jack Morrison

Or you wouldn’t NEED to HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER THEM. Would you, tommy. Here ya go, tommy. Here’s a other dog your CC and OC trainin MURDERED: HOWEDY laura,

diana is a dog abuser a liar and a mental case. Like yourself. | if other areas of his obedience are going well, | use that to help you break this habit – if he’s | busy performing a command for you, he won’t | be busy barking for you.

Yeah. That’ll provoke the dog to do it MOORE cause it’ll REWARD his attention gettin devices. | I’ve tried this too, but have no success.

That’s cause lee is a MOOREON. |  He performs the command but continues to bark.

SEE??? Told ya so! Since he’s a smart and obedient dog,

Yeah. Smart, obedient, Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre,"  perhaps you could give him a command

Like the DIE command, laura? that precludes barking?

Oh? You must mean the "NO BARK!" command. Won’t work on this Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre, dog. Perhaps teach him to sit and hold an object for you – dumbbell, glove, rolled newspaper, ball –

Yeah. That’ll make him very happy. He WANTS attention, and that’d be payin him off. you could simply carry an item like this in your pocket when you go out.

RIGHT. That COULD work… till WON fine day when IT don’t have sumpthin to put in ITS MHOWETH and then he’ll GO NUTS.  And then Sit! Hold! would produce the desired behaviour?

Yeah. Like it did for your DEAD DOG Chewie. Just a thought…

Yeah. That’s HOWE COME you MUREDERED your own DEAD DOG Chewie. Laura and Angel in Oslo

laura MURDERED her heart dog Chewie just like HOWE your pal tara o. did her DEAD DOG Summer as have many of HOWER DOG LOVERS here abHOWETS. Here’s HOWE COME laura KILLED her dog Chewie: Well, we’re doing as you say Dogman, and I’ll keep you all posted. Laura in Oslo

You’re quite the dog enthusiast, eh laura? The listener,

You didn’t WANT to listen to The Puppy Wizard when HE told you you couldn’t PUNISH and INTIMIDATE your dog or you’d make IT aggressive. the observer.

NHOWE you got a DEAD DOG HOWETA it.  We do work were you sometimes have to observe people

Like laura, MURDERING her dog… and take notes.

INDEEDY! B. has amazing powers of observation and concentration.

RIGHT… Laura and Angel in Oslo

"Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre," And DEAD. HOWEDY People, Here’s HOWE COME laura arlov KILLED her "Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful.  Full Of "Joie de Vivre," And DEAD DOG Chewie: While I was listening to the Miles Davis CD, "Kind Of Blue," and drinking a little Booker’s, on 24 Apr 1999 Was that a SERIOUS ENOUGH bite for you dogman, or was it insignificant? Why would you suggest getting a book or obediance, is there no bite SERIOUS enough for you?

Yes, there are, but this one was *caused* by the actions of a very, very STUPID human being, someone much like yourself. And it only hapopened ONCE. And there are many, many dogs out there today living perfectly normal and honorable lives who, upon having done to them what was done to this dog ("Chewie"), would also bite. I mean, how stupid can one person get? Don’t answer that yet, Broke, you’re setting a new record almost everyday. Here’s what the owner’s husband did (and precisely what caused the bite), just in case you forgot: (My husband was holding Chewie’s head and looking him in the eye and yelling at him, and Chewie growled louder and louder and louder and then bit my husband.)

I wonder just how many dogs out there wouldn’t at least be tempted to bite some stupid idiot for doing that to him? I include below the entire post for viewers reading pleasure, and so they can take everything I said in its proper *context.* PS:  I’d be willing to wager a large amount of money that this particular dog will never bite this guy again, provided: 1.)  The family gives this dog some OBEDIENCE training. 2.)  The guy refrains from doing really STUPID things to the dog. 3.)  The guy PARTICIPATES in the training. 4.)  They have a professional ASSESS the dog. Putting this dog down simply for doing the above is UNCONSCIONABLE. This dog needs to be assessed, in person, by a knowledgeable trainer/behaviorist before any action is even considered. Now yesterday morning, Chewie lost his temper with my husband and bit him, hard. (Deep puncture, lots of blood, docot visit, tetanus shot, antibiotics, the whole shooting match) Dogman’s words of wisdom: You need to get a book on recognizing animal behavior ***(I have some listed on my web site)***, and you need to get your husband (and children, if they’re old enough) involved in the OBEDIENCE training of this dog. WRONG. You need to cull. Do not give that dog a second chance to bite someone and draw blood another time, like your childs face… Broke Egoman and his dangerous advice should be ignored.

Doofuses are always welcome to ignore my advice, after all, that’s why they remain doofuses, eh? Beginning of the actual post, before Broke selectively snipped: Upon my return to the Cuckoo’s Nest, [...] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We have an 18 month old male Airedale Terrier, Chewbacca (Chewie).

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Response:

HOWEDY Lee,

.. Child:there was a study done about tugging and it was found that dogs like to play more often if you let them win on occasion.  Sound like Rozzy is no exception!

Right. A dog is a dog. Actually, you should *always* let the dog win, and praise her very enthusiastically for winning.

Right. Just like HOWE it’s done in attack trainin. This will do a number of beneficial things for overall behavior,

Right. It’ll build confidence and develop the prey / pack drive flow stuff you teach. and can even be used with some dogs to cure aggression!

There’s a fine line between play and aggression. The line is broadend when there’s abundant TRUST. Dogs instinctively SHARE. Bribing dogs and witholding bribes and "rewards" teaches greed and mistrust. And a dog who always wins will also be more likely to bring the object back to you for another game, not because she doesn’t like to win but because she wants to win again.

Perhaps THAT’S HOWE COME taking forbidden STUFF from teh dog teaches them to TAKE forbidden STUFF. Not lettin them take it back TEACHES  them to SWALLOW IT before you can STEAL their B-HOWENTY.  (And again and again.)

RIGHT. ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY MISHANLDING as taught by the EXXXPERTS we’ve IDENTIFIED EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED as bein INCOMPETENT. Which brings up another rule:

       "The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior                                       Never Change,            Or They’d Not Be Scientific And Could Not Obtain                 Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results                            For All Handler’s And All Dogs,                                   NEARLY INSTANTLY,        As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard’s       FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual,"                              The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ )   it’s okay to let the dog initiate tug once in a while,

The Amazing Puppy Wizard discourages that by using clever subterfuge and shortly thereafter offers the opportunity to play or whatever, thereby makin the dog think you’re the smartest person in the Whole Wild World. if you’re in the mood to play,

The subterfuge is to acknowledge the dog’s desire to initiate the activity and pretending to have other obligations. The dog learns self control and fogets abHOWET it till the next time. A few minutes later when YOU ask the dog if he wants to do whatever, he thinks you’re a freakin genius. but it’s important for you to always be in charge of when the game ends.

There’s the rub. When we try to break a dog from playing or aggression, we can’t just tell him to STOP and let the aggressor run HOWET on him or remove the tug toy or we’ll increase is level of anxiHOWESNESS. HOWEver, we DO do THAT in protection trainin to INCREASE aggression. IOW, the drive is NOT satisfied by gettin a bite. That makes the dog MOORE furiHOWES the next time. HOWEver, we’re always dealin with a DHOWEBLE edged sword. If we rely on that tactic to INCREASE anxiHOWESNESS and DON’T satisfy his prey drive by allHOWEING him the capture and bite, we’ll inadvertently BREAK DHOWEN the prey drive. And no tugging allowed on the leash, clothes, or body parts.

Right. Particularly with a dog you’re trainin for attack work, on accHOWENT of you don’t want him to get anxiHOWES abHOWET the aggitator and accidently grab your arm instead of his target. Ordinarily The Amazing Puppy Wizard would frHOWEN on someWON trying what Disciple Paulie is EXXXPERIMENTING with, on accHOWENT of the EXXXERCISE could leave the dog highly aggitated and unsafe. Fortunately, Disciple Paulie is an EXXXPERT dog handler, WON of the BEST of The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students. He too has been called a LIAR by HOWER pal tommy sorenson, so don’t feel as THOWE he’s pickin on you, he attacks and refuses to talk business with any competent trainers who’ve ever posted here abHOWETS. Of curse, HOWER EXXXPERTS don’t think it’s ETHICKAL to talk abHOWET attack trainin on thse forums, despite that we’ve got WON of the very best in the business, HOWER on lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn who has evaluated the dogs in the Knoller / Whipple case, and of curse, FRAUDreck, HOWER shock collar salesman who’s sleeve happy Pit Bull (of curse PB’S don’t attack humans) has WON the NAPD CHUMPionship a couple times runnin, but STILL NEEDS to be SHOCKED. That’s all for NHOWE. The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{) ; ~  )  

Response:

HOWEDY sinofabitch,

what you have discovered is that winning matters to *some* dogs, and one of those is Roz.

Right. But the EXXXPERIMENT is just beginin.   Yep. If he owned Rocsi, he’d have come to a completely different conclusion.

That so?  Let her "win", and more often than not, she  immediately brings the object back to hand  so the game can go on.

RIGHT. So she can WIN again.   This is particularly funny when the object of tug is the leash –

No, that’s a different matter. especially because it confounds 90% of observers,

No, it only CONfHOWENDS you and 10% of observers. The 90% got it RIGHT and you and them other losers got it DEAD WRONG.  who draw an entirely wrong conclusion as to what’s going on when they see her apparently "fighting" her leash.

Your dog grabs her leash to PREVENT YOU FROM HURTING HER someMOORE, sinofabitch.   They assume that she’s trying to get away from me,

On accHOWENT of you choke and shock her. or protesting the leash…

Like that new under the table dog walking client you attacked and threw to the grHOWEND and grHOWELED into ITS throat and bit on ITS ear after jerking and choking IT for a half HOWER on your pronged spiked pinch choke collar didn’t make IT want to enjoy your walk in the park. however, if I let go, or Rocsi inadvertently pulls it out of my hand, she stops dead.

RIGHT. On accHOWENT of there’s noMOORE CHOKING. It’s called positive THUGmotaxis, sinofabitch. THAT’S HOWE COME you can’t train a dog not to pull, withHOWET SHOCKING and JERKING and CHOKING them on your pronged spiked pinch choke collar. REMEMBER? If I then hold out my hand, she’ll pick up the end of the leash in her mouth, trot over, and place it in my hand.

Right. She wants to play tug when you’re not CHOKING her.   I have to admit that I get a kick out of watching people’s faces when she does this. <G

Yeah. Your dog FEARS the leash, THAT’S HWOE COME she grabs and shakes it. That you haven’t been able to TRAIN her NOT to do that, speaks to your inability to handle and train ANY dog for any behavior. UNLESS of curse, you PREFER your dog to be destroying her leash. Here’s you HURTIN a dog and LYING abHOWET it: sinofabitch writes: What I have said- repeatedly – is that he took posts from two different people, took pieces of them out of context, cobbled them together, then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly." and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is exactly what he did. The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context, and Jerry’s faked "quote" is downright meaningless. Here’s Jerry’s version   "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My    Right Arm  Over The Lab’s Shoulder,    Grabbed Her Opposite  Foot With My    Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,    Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into    Her Throat  And Said "GRRRR!" And    Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch. Here’s yours;   "I dropped the leash, threw my   right arm over the Lab’s shoulder,   grabbed her opposite foot with my   left hand, rolled her on her side,   leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and   nipped her ear.   –Sara Sionnach

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. "When you get bagged for lying you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY.

He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing.  He didn’t even blink an eye. Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/

I can’t imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can’t remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Jerking choking and shockin and lockin dogs in boxes and ignoring their cries makes their dogs go "EWWWW" but they don’t NOTICE EXXXCEPT to spray BINACA in their eyes and jerk and choke them on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shock and spray MOORE aversives in their faces. Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog’s been sprayed in the face and the dog won’t know HOWE COME IT was MACED?  My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.

They’re DUMB ANIMALS these MENTAL CASES HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And Sally responded: Who said that?  I would never do or recommend that, and neither would most of the regulars on here. Sally Hennessey I’ve posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so. Take it out of context and you’d think I was flinging puppies across the room! here’s what I said (keep in mind that we’re talking about a 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):  A small scruff shake is appropriate if he’s very persistant.

  Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make   it  clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily   misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff   of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?   I think I’d phrase it something like "if the puppy is very   persistant, it  can be appropriate to take hold of the   loose skin at the back of the neck and give a slight   shake to the *skin*".   Janet’s not talking about actually shaking   the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is   abusive." THAT’S INSANE. AIN’T IT. So’s this: Here’s professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research at UofWI, marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation," dermer: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy,  "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p. BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it.         The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{}TPW ; ~  }   P.S.  Contacting Dr. P: Please note that due to the large number of requests I receive, I can no longer give free, personal advice on problems related to dog training and behavior. In order for me to give such advice we would have to "talk" about the problem at length. That is, I would need detailed information about the dog, it’s environment and routine, the problem, and the situation in which the problem occurs. Thus, this type of consultation takes time which I cannot afford to give away for free. If you wish such advice, please see the information I have provided about my K9 Behavioral Consulting practice. Another alternative to obtaining personal advice is to participate in e-mail, chat room, & newsgroup discussions. P.P.S. BWEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!                 YOU’RE FRAUDS, drs p. and dermer!               Either DEFEND your LIES, ABUSE And               Degrees or get the heel HOWETA THIS                                  BUSINESS.         "If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you                        and you will know each other.          If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,                 and what you do not know you will fear.                        What one fears, one destroys."                               Chief Dan George               "(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the               few regulars here who are either ill-               tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.),"                                   –Marshall while walking backwards

Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what it felt like to me when I got shocked by Hope’s collar. It felt like a bomb going off in my hand and forearm.

how effective are these electronic fences in keeping a dog on a property???? Some run through it. Others get shocked and become too scared to go out in the yard anymore. Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog, because the dog got caught right in the path of the shock and will now not go near his person, won’t go outside. Just hides under a desk in the house.

"I’d call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won’t touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller. "I know this is a hard subject to bring up … read more »

Response:

THAT’S HOWE COME Disciple Paulie is doin the EXXXPERIMENT. HOWEDY Disciple Paulie, S-HOWENDS like a interesting EXXXPERIMENT. Here’s HOWE The Amazing Puppy Wizard predicts the HOWEtcome will go:. Inasmuch as dogs learn on the basis of 4 repetitions, your dog is just abHOWET to learn what you’re up to, that the game has changed. She’ll figger this HOWET on the next session for SHORE, and then she’ll throw you the curve ball. Perhaps she’ll do somethin like drop off the tug and come arHOWEND and bite you on the arse and then grab the tug and make off with it. Or, she may refuse to play untill you forget she wasn’t playin and then she’ll grab he tug and make off with it when you ain’t prepared to defend it. See what happens, this ought to be good. Whatever the HOWEtcome, it should show some creative doggy thinkin and trickery. Yours, The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{) ; ~  )  

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used to believe dogs played tug for the joy of tugging and the outcome didn’t matter, well I’ve changed my opinion, recently after playing full on tug with Roz there is only one thing on her mind and thats to hold on longer than me. there was a study done about tugging and it was found that dogs like to play more often if you let them win on occasion.  Sound like Rozzy is no exception!

Response:

Question:

I have been taking a few e-classes at Portland State University in Portland, OR.  I did not know I was dyslexic at the time.  E-learning has been a two edged sword for me.  A big problem for me is decoding the phonics of a spoken voice (namely that of the professor) and it is compounded when the professor is foreign, as many are.  So in that regard online learning is a blessing because I do not have to sit in class and struggle to "hear" the teacher (I have well above perfect hearing, btw). However, what I found was that in addition to losing the audio, which was fine, I also lost the visual, and was faced instead with a wall of text.  At least in class I could watch the professor’s body language for cues to importance and meaning, and excelled in classes where a lot of pictures, videos, mini-in-class-experiments, and other non- pure-data-assimilation methods were used.  Online you pretty much got text, text, and more text.  Eeek! PSU offers support for students with disabilities and I’ve seen them be very good about that with other students and with promoting awareness of it.  I’m sure I could have gotten "extra time" for tests and maybe due dates but I imagine that’s about it.  Despite the promise of broadband and the possibility for classes which integrate rich multimedia and interactive experiences, the text-only kind is cheaper, more efficient, and only leaves a minority percentage of students behind. I do not think e-learning is the best option for most dyslexics as primarily visual thinkers. Hope this helps some, and good luck with the study. Josh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello dear all. I am a dyslextic e-learning student. just found it out in the last year of my msc. e-learning, multimedia and consultancy study. when I discovered the shock I found out that there is hardly any support for online students. for instance, when I asked for support, I was offered stickers to put on my work. for all these reasons I am writing my dissertation on online support for e-learning students. is there anyone else around with experience as an online dyslextic student? what kind of support did you want and what did you get? thanks for your time, Ang

Question:

As well as being dylexic I also have the form of dyslexia that affects my abilty to calculate in my head, I have problems with concentation and I am also dyspraxic which affects my ability to co-ordinated, manual dextrity,sense of direction and certain aspects of my congnative abilty, I also have problems with concentration and short term memeory. Apart from that I am all right. These disabilties or whatever you want to call them have given me a lot of problems in life mainly because they never got picked up. I think the bullying I recieved as a child affects me now in something like post trumatic stress disorder or what ever its called.

not to beliitle you in any way but it is so very sad how many people dyslexic or not carry emosional wounds from school, i know i do. Generally I feel level emotionally but when I first found i was dyslexix I went through a range of emotions, i fist felt a sense of relief, then I felt sorry ffor my self keept thinking if my problems had been picked up then my life may have been different, then I got real feeling of anger. Now, generally I feel ok but sometimes certain comments, events etc will trigger the above emotons off. I tend now to feel anger which is a lot better that feelig sad.

yes i think so in many ways you need to release it to get some peace, as having anger burning in side one does nothing for ones mental health. i know i buryed thess fealings for many many years and that did me no good what so ever. I used to accept being bullied and abused becauese I felt worthless now I won’t accept being bullied and abused. That brings me back to Rob or Bob saying the world is a harsh place and owe you nothing. Well  I have a right to be treated with respect. I treat other with respect and expect the same in return. I do think the world have a responsibilty as to how it treats the disabled. I think for example I should exepect a company to provided me with equipment I may need to do a job. I also think that the world has a responsiblity to see how it can become more dyslexia friendly. After all the world has changed to suit woment to an extend and it had changed to accmmodate ethnic minorties so why should it nor change, to an extent to suit us?

we have a right to be treated with respect and not to be ridiculded. i do find a lot of dyslexic jokes highly irritating for one. roger

Response:

snip…stuff roger I have found that you are correct about "triggers" bringing up old wounds about my dyslexia … Personally I delt with things ok(for the most part) after I graduated, all that book work was a thing of the past.

yeah well i though i was doing ok but what i really did was bury stuff, not to say that you need to deal with these things or rather solve them but for ones mental health its best to vauquish any demons so you can be at peace. doesn’t mean you should or can forgive or forget but augure/hate is not wise to hold in your head.   Recently those old feelings of stupidity and inaddiquicys came back full force when my son who is 11 brings home his homework (especially math) asks me to help and I literally can’t do it. I don’t understand it and  I end up with a headache and sick stomach trying to help him not to mention the humiliation I feel when my son wonders why his mom is so dumb, I tell him he will have to ask his teacher to explain it again so he will understand, because 5th grade math is too hard for his mom.

his mum is dyslexic not dumb rember that.    And those dreaded reports, book reports ,science reports, etc… I could bullsh!t my way through them in school but its a whole different ball game when your supossed to teach your child how to organize his thoughts , when you can’t (or at least not very well). Its really sad whe you help him with an assignment and he gets a "C" that is a real wake up call for how stupid you must be…. Hedda

well yes i can see the hurt but like i woun’t beable to teach any kid the alabet easy as A,B,C not here it isn’t as it is totaly behond me. does that make me thick? no i don’t think so. yes it is embarising and painful i know, but kids are normally very understanding have you spoke to him about it? well

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As well as being dylexic I also have the form of dyslexia that affects my abilty to calculate in my head, I have problems with concentation and I am also dyspraxic which affects my ability to co-ordinated, manual dextrity,sense of direction and certain aspects of my congnative abilty, I also have problems with concentration and short term memeory. Apart from that I am all right. These disabilties or whatever you want to call them have given me a lot of problems in life mainly because they never got picked up. I think the bullying I recieved as a child affects me now in something like post trumatic stress disorder or what ever its called. not to beliitle you in any way but it is so very sad how many people dyslexic or not carry emosional wounds from school, i know i do. Generally I feel level emotionally but when I first found i was dyslexix I went through a range of emotions, i fist felt a sense of relief, then I felt sorry ffor my self keept thinking if my problems had been picked up then my life may have been different, then I got real feeling of anger. Now, generally I feel ok but sometimes certain comments, events etc will trigger the above emotons off. I tend now to feel anger which is a lot better that feelig sad. yes i think so in many ways you need to release it to get some peace, as having anger burning in side one does nothing for ones mental health. i know i buryed thess fealings for many many years and that did me no good what so ever. I used to accept being bullied and abused becauese I felt worthless now I won’t accept being bullied and abused. That brings me back to Rob or Bob saying the world is a harsh place and owe you nothing. Well  I have a right to be treated with respect. I treat other with respect and expect the same in return. I do think the world have a responsibilty as to how it treats the disabled. I think for example I should exepect a company to provided me with equipment I may need to do a job. I also think that the world has a responsiblity to see how it can become more dyslexia friendly. After all the world has changed to suit woment to an extend and it had changed to accmmodate ethnic minorties so why should it nor change, to an extent to suit us? we have a right to be treated with respect and not to be ridiculded. i do find a lot of dyslexic jokes highly irritating for one. roger

I have found that you are correct about "triggers" bringing up old wounds about my dyslexia … Personally I delt with things ok(for the most part) after I graduated, all that book work was a thing of the past.   Recently those old feelings of stupidity and inaddiquicys came back full force when my son who is 11 brings home his homework (especially math) asks me to help and I literally can’t do it. I don’t understand it and  I end up with a headache and sick stomach trying to help him not to mention the humiliation I feel when my son wonders why his mom is so dumb, I tell him he will have to ask his teacher to explain it again so he will understand, because 5th grade math is too hard for his mom.    And those dreaded reports, book reports ,science reports, etc… I could bullsh!t my way through them in school but its a whole different ball game when your supossed to teach your child how to organize his thoughts , when you can’t (or at least not very well). Its really sad whe you help him with an assignment and he gets a "C" that is a real wake up call for how stupid you must be…. Hedda

Response:

Hi I agree with you 100 percent. I am the Mr Nice Guy usually, and I am tired of being treated like crap.  Even though I am treated like crap, I am still a nice guy. I believe in respecting people, and so I believe that I should be respected too. I am rather thankful that I have been mistreated because it gives me the ability to easily sympathize with others who are mistreated. I am training to be a holistic health practitioner because I want to spend the rest of my life helping and serving others. I am so sorry about all the bad things that you went through. I have a history of Dyslexia and Dyspraxia too, and I can relate to ADHD too. I grew up ashamed of those things because I was very ingnorant about that stuff. Now I am proud  because I have certain gifts that come from it. I don’t think that I am better than anybody. I still remain a humble person. I believe in equality in all human beings. Learning about learning disabilities has really helped me. I feel that I have finally found the last piece of the puzzle to help me succeed in life. I feel that things are much better for me now, and I hope the same for you. I wish you the best of luck. Raymond – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As well as being dylexic I also have the form of dyslexia that affects my abilty to calculate in my head, I have problems with concentation and I am also dyspraxic which affects my ability to co-ordinated, manual dextrity,sense of direction and certain aspects of my congnative abilty, I also have problems with concentration and short term memeory. Apart from that I am all right. These disabilties or whatever you want to call them have given me a lot of problems in life mainly because they never got picked up. I think the bullying I recieved as a child affects me now in something like post trumatic stress disorder or what ever its called. Generally I feel level emotionally but when I first found i was dyslexix I went through a range of emotions, i fist felt a sense of relief, then I felt sorry ffor my self keept thinking if my problems had been picked up then my life may have been different, then I got real feeling of anger. Now, generally I feel ok but sometimes certain comments, events etc will trigger the above emotons off. I tend now to feel anger which is a lot better that feelig sad. I used to accept being bullied and abused becauese I felt worthless now I won’t accept being bullied and abused. That brings me back to Rob or Bob saying the world is a harsh place and owe you nothing. Well  I have a right to be treated with respect. I treat other with respect and expect the same in return. I do think the world have a responsibilty as to how it treats the disabled. I think for example I should exepect a company to provided me with equipment I may need to do a job. I also think that the world has a responsiblity to see how it can become more dyslexia friendly. After all the world has changed to suit woment to an extend and it had changed to accmmodate ethnic minorties so why should it nor change, to an extent to suit us?

Response:

As well as being dylexic I also have the form of dyslexia that affects my abilty to calculate in my head, I have problems with concentation and I am also dyspraxic which affects my ability to co-ordinated, manual dextrity,sense of direction and certain aspects of my congnative abilty, I also have problems with concentration and short term memeory. Apart from that I am all right. These disabilties or whatever you want to call them have given me a lot of problems in life mainly because they never got picked up. I think the bullying I recieved as a child affects me now in something like post trumatic stress disorder or what ever its called. Generally I feel level emotionally but when I first found i was dyslexix I went through a range of emotions, i fist felt a sense of relief, then I felt sorry ffor my self keept thinking if my problems had been picked up then my life may have been different, then I got real feeling of anger. Now, generally I feel ok but sometimes certain comments, events etc will trigger the above emotons off. I tend now to feel anger which is a lot better that feelig sad. I used to accept being bullied and abused becauese I felt worthless now I won’t accept being bullied and abused. That brings me back to Rob or Bob saying the world is a harsh place and owe you nothing. Well  I have a right to be treated with respect. I treat other with respect and expect the same in return. I do think the world have a responsibilty as to how it treats the disabled. I think for example I should exepect a company to provided me with equipment I may need to do a job. I also think that the world has a responsiblity to see how it can become more dyslexia friendly. After all the world has changed to suit woment to an extend and it had changed to accmmodate ethnic minorties so why should it nor change, to an extent to suit us?

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it.     I was making a direct response to Raymond, in a desperate attempt to give the poor guy some perspective. Dyslexia is an obstacle, but in and of itself it doesn’t hold people back. It’s an inherrent part of who you are, and it’s melded deep into your personality. It’s like saying you’re being held back because you’re not athletic, or you don’t have good memory. There are dyslexics who overcome that obstacle to reach their goals, even when dyslexia is directly opposed to them, all the time. Whether or not you’re one of those people is dependent entirely on whether or not you’re strong enough as a person to do it and if achieving the goal is worth enough to you, and has nothing to do with dyslexia itself. If dyselxia is the stumbling block that stops you, then it wasn’t dyselxia. There are dozens of other stumbling blocks that would’ve stopped you had it not been there.

well yes and no, remeber there are many differant forms and levels sevority of dyslexic and related symptoms, just becuase person A isn’t held back is no reason why person B might be, that said rather like the thought "every one is having fun but me" ie would people have differant lives if they where not dysexic probably but then you woun’t be who you are as dyslexic is how your brain works, its not just oh that wee bit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying.     Same with me. So I do have some perspective on where you’re coming from. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused.     Try this one. So what are you doing about it? You’ve had a horrible childhood, a good one seems like a rarity. You went undiagnosed all those years. But you’ve survived. You’re past the bad part. And you’re diagnosed now. You know why things are the way they are, and you know what kind of help you need. Is there a complaint in here somewhere?     If you missed it last time I was here, maybe you’ll see it this time. I made a post two months ago, and I haven’t been back to this group since (it became unreadable due to spam). After all this time you’ve written two responses to me. This isn’t a direct response to me (unless I’m wrong and you’re just going through the archives), but something you’ve put at least some energy into coming up with. Why? I’m a faceless person who a while back said something you didn’t agree with online, and I don’t even know you. So, other than my ego, what purpose does it serve to be devoting so much energy into something that has past and been forgotten, and couldn’t that energy be applied to more positive endevours?     Do you see the point here? Yeah, I know I’m nobody and you’ll probably have forgotten about me in a few months and be done with it, but there are other, bigger things, in the same regard you’ve mentioned in your posts. What good is it doing you to dwell on things in the past which you’ve already escaped and never have to deal with again?

what spam? certianly i receved none here but one about the x men suck.. yes there are a lot of people with childhood scars from school and schooling and that doesn’t make it any less worse though by the same token dosn’t mean you have to dig about sometimes its not worth persuing what is going to hurt you but that has no resulotion. roger

Response:

I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it.

    I was making a direct response to Raymond, in a desperate attempt to give the poor guy some perspective. Dyslexia is an obstacle, but in and of itself it doesn’t hold people back. It’s an inherrent part of who you are, and it’s melded deep into your personality. It’s like saying you’re being held back because you’re not athletic, or you don’t have good memory. There are dyslexics who overcome that obstacle to reach their goals, even when dyslexia is directly opposed to them, all the time. Whether or not you’re one of those people is dependent entirely on whether or not you’re strong enough as a person to do it and if achieving the goal is worth enough to you, and has nothing to do with dyslexia itself. If dyselxia is the stumbling block that stops you, then it wasn’t dyselxia. There are dozens of other stumbling blocks that would’ve stopped you had it not been there. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying.

    Same with me. So I do have some perspective on where you’re coming from. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused.

    Try this one. So what are you doing about it? You’ve had a horrible childhood, a good one seems like a rarity. You went undiagnosed all those years. But you’ve survived. You’re past the bad part. And you’re diagnosed now. You know why things are the way they are, and you know what kind of help you need. Is there a complaint in here somewhere?     If you missed it last time I was here, maybe you’ll see it this time. I made a post two months ago, and I haven’t been back to this group since (it became unreadable due to spam). After all this time you’ve written two responses to me. This isn’t a direct response to me (unless I’m wrong and you’re just going through the archives), but something you’ve put at least some energy into coming up with. Why? I’m a faceless person who a while back said something you didn’t agree with online, and I don’t even know you. So, other than my ego, what purpose does it serve to be devoting so much energy into something that has past and been forgotten, and couldn’t that energy be applied to more positive endevours?     Do you see the point here? Yeah, I know I’m nobody and you’ll probably have forgotten about me in a few months and be done with it, but there are other, bigger things, in the same regard you’ve mentioned in your posts. What good is it doing you to dwell on things in the past which you’ve already escaped and never have to deal with again?

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I have not logged onto this website for some time, what has happened to it, has it been cancelled, there appears to be no new correspondence since February 2004. Karen

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Hi Roger, I hope that all is well with you. I have seen your posts, and I have to say that you come a across as a very understanding,wise,and tolerant person who sees the big picture. You seem to show positive expression of sensitivity. I want to thank you for what you said. You pretty much said what I wanted to say. I feel that people assume too much stuff about people and then they say things that are rather erroneous. I have been doing a lot of things to help myself including attending massage school to prepare to be a holistic health practitioner which I feel is the spiritual path that I was born for.

snipped stuff um thanks, glad to be about though newsgroups by their nature make poor suport groups. but i’m glad you are doing what is needed to help your self, dyslexic do tend to pick up scrars from schooling for obvious reasons. roger

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused. If its not acceptable to raceully abuse some one why should it be acceptable to abuse someone for being dyslexic. I admit to being sensative, but what is wrong with that? It better that being thicked skinned, mindless person who does not care about any feelings.If I am sensative then I am about other people feelings as well as my own. Jon I totally agree, while we are seemingly ( to some people) using our Dyslexia as an excuse…that is not the case… We need to be validated our whole life we have been made to feel dumb and after awhile you start to believe it …even though deep down you know you are not.  When you spend countless days turning in homework that you know had correct answers and recieving a D or F because your gramar was so terrible, you ideas and subject get lost…because to a non Dyslexic person I you can’t spell and don’t know how to use puncuation you must be an idiot.    if you tell a dog he’s bad long enough he will start to believe you ….and should he get a new owner , he will need twice as much reassurance to think that he isn’t that bad afterall. Hedda

yes self worth is such a important aspect of it all, i rember that my spelling would be better just after a holiday as i wouldn’t be reminded how bad it was so was feeling more confidant. roger

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused. If its not acceptable to raceully abuse some one why should it be acceptable to abuse someone for being dyslexic. I admit to being sensative, but what is wrong with that? It better that being thicked skinned, mindless person who does not care about any feelings.If I am sensative then I am about other people feelings as well as my own.

Jon I totally agree, while we are seemingly ( to some people) using our Dyslexia as an excuse…that is not the case… We need to be validated our whole life we have been made to feel dumb and after awhile you start to believe it …even though deep down you know you are not.  When you spend countless days turning in homework that you know had correct answers and recieving a D or F because your gramar was so terrible, you ideas and subject get lost…because to a non Dyslexic person I you can’t spell and don’t know how to use puncuation you must be an idiot.    if you tell a dog he’s bad long enough he will start to believe you ….and should he get a new owner , he will need twice as much reassurance to think that he isn’t that bad afterall. Hedda

Response:

I have not logged onto this website for some time, what has happened to it, has it been cancelled, there appears to be no new correspondence since February 2004. Karen

well its just a very slow ie mostly dorment newsgroup insdently you don’t have to use the web site you can use a usenet reader or a lot of email clinents etc…. but yes it is very very slow here i don’t think there are that many reading baskly…. roger

Response:

Hi Fiona, Getting him testing for Dyslexia is the first step. That definitely helps. Telling him about Dyslexia and what it entails will help him understand that he’s not stupid. Teaching him phonics can help him as it is said that Dyslexics have problems with phonemes(sound units of language). A multisensory approach  is said to be best for Dyslexics. I read that Dyslexics think mainly in pictures, and I know that I do. Visualizing might help him in compensating for any short term memory problems that he might have. Focusing on his strengths could help because he might have gifts that he can utilize in his life that can lead to success(e.g. music,art,drama). Most of all, keep showing him a lot of love and understanding. Raymond – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wow, your experiences here that Ive read, shocked me. I believe my son to have dyslexia and am in the process of getting him tested, and the main reason Ive done it is because of his low self esteem and his, "im stupid" attitude. I feel for him, for 3 yrs, Ive felt he was "lazy" and "not trying" but, in the last few weeks we have been working hard together on spelling, reading etc, and He has worked his but of, to almost no improvement. It made me feel usless as a mum and I realised I dont have the skills to help him. But, I really dont know where to go. I dont want my son to look back on his childhood with sadness, of being teased forever, bullied as he is now, and with the lable of "stupid". What can I do to help him? and to build up his self esteem? Feeling hopeless, Fiona I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused. If its not acceptable to raceully abuse some one why should it be acceptable to abuse someone for being dyslexic. I admit to being sensative, but what is wrong with that? It better that being thicked skinned, mindless person who does not care about any feelings.If I am sensative then I am about other people feelings as well as my own.

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Well, I don’t know that i dwell on the past as such but it kind of comes and goes. I am having counsiling now to try and help. Somtimes I have bad dreams about the bullying i recieved and sometime go back to being a frightend boy. Its really only recently that i realised that my past was affecting me. In a sense I guess it will always me with me. The counseling is also looking at now, how do I handle situations now. When I fists found out I was dyslexic I went through a wave of emotions which I think many people do. FIrst i felt a sense of relife, then started feeling sorry for myself then I felt anger. The anger is still with me, a bit lie the Hulk it comes and goes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it.     I was making a direct response to Raymond, in a desperate attempt to give the poor guy some perspective. Dyslexia is an obstacle, but in and of itself it doesn’t hold people back. It’s an inherrent part of who you are, and it’s melded deep into your personality. It’s like saying you’re being held back because you’re not athletic, or you don’t have good memory. There are dyslexics who overcome that obstacle to reach their goals, even when dyslexia is directly opposed to them, all the time. Whether or not you’re one of those people is dependent entirely on whether or not you’re strong enough as a person to do it and if achieving the goal is worth enough to you, and has nothing to do with dyslexia itself. If dyselxia is the stumbling block that stops you, then it wasn’t dyselxia. There are dozens of other stumbling blocks that would’ve stopped you had it not been there. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying.     Same with me. So I do have some perspective on where you’re coming from. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused.     Try this one. So what are you doing about it? You’ve had a horrible childhood, a good one seems like a rarity. You went undiagnosed all those years. But you’ve survived. You’re past the bad part. And you’re diagnosed now. You know why things are the way they are, and you know what kind of help you need. Is there a complaint in here somewhere?     If you missed it last time I was here, maybe you’ll see it this time. I made a post two months ago, and I haven’t been back to this group since (it became unreadable due to spam). After all this time you’ve written two responses to me. This isn’t a direct response to me (unless I’m wrong and you’re just going through the archives), but something you’ve put at least some energy into coming up with. Why? I’m a faceless person who a while back said something you didn’t agree with online, and I don’t even know you. So, other than my ego, what purpose does it serve to be devoting so much energy into something that has past and been forgotten, and couldn’t that energy be applied to more positive endevours?     Do you see the point here? Yeah, I know I’m nobody and you’ll probably have forgotten about me in a few months and be done with it, but there are other, bigger things, in the same regard you’ve mentioned in your posts. What good is it doing you to dwell on things in the past which you’ve already escaped and never have to deal with again?

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This is a cool site that I came across it deals with reading problems amd their direct impact on a childs self-esteem.  Hedda http://www.childrenofthecode.org/workshops/index.htm

Response:

I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused. If its not acceptable to raceully abuse some one why should it be acceptable to abuse someone for being dyslexic. I admit to being sensative, but what is wrong with that? It better that being thicked skinned, mindless person who does not care about any feelings.If I am sensative then I am about other people feelings as well as my own.

Response:

Hello Fiona, There’s always hope.  Just the fact that you’re looking for some answers and having him tested is really the first step. Our son is 7 years old and has dyslexia.  We are on the road to success. He’s doing so well this year.  Like you, the first step was to have a formal evaluation done.  It’s hard to do anything without this because you need to understand where his strengths are so that you can use them and where his weaknesses are so you can start from the beginning and progress at his rate. Try and find a good speech and language pathologist to help out.  If he has dyslexia, he could also have problems with time concepts (days of the week, seasons, yesterday, today, tomorrow, etc.), finding the right words to express himself, short and/or long term memory problems etc.  They have some great techniques to help with this. If you could find someone trained in any Orton Gillingham program, that would help with the reading and spelling.  We use the Wilson Language system which works very well but there are quite a few out there.  Here’s the link to help give you an idea of what it’s about http://wilsonlanguage.com/w_about.htm . They are more than capable of learning to read and spell but it takes a different technique compared to what they use in a lot of the schools.  They are often very visual so showing them something is much more effective that teaching and explaining (multi sensory).  We were lucky to find a speech and language pathologist who was also a certified teacher with Wilson. In the meantime, don’t fight it.  If he’s still in public school, maybe your time would be better spent working with him on something that he is good at. I know, you want to focus on the things that he needs help on but if he’s spending his days working with no success, just to come home and do some more, that will really wear on his self esteem.  If you could point out the things that he’s good at, it could create somewhat of a balance for him so that his days aren’t so much of a nightmare.  In the meantime, get the evaluation done and find the people who are properly trained to help him. Once you’ve found them, they will be able to train you so that you will be able to help him also.  If you do want to continue with some reading practice, try pulling out some very easy books.  Take some of the pressure off (they really don’t do well under pressure) and give him work that he can be successful at, even if it means going back to grade 1 work.  We don’t learn how to run before we can walk. I really hope that this helps.  I wish you all of the luck in the world and hope that you receive some great help once you have the evaluation in hand. Take care Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wow, your experiences here that Ive read, shocked me. I believe my son to have dyslexia and am in the process of getting him tested, and the main reason Ive done it is because of his low self esteem and his, "im stupid" attitude. I feel for him, for 3 yrs, Ive felt he was "lazy" and "not trying" but, in the last few weeks we have been working hard together on spelling, reading etc, and He has worked his but of, to almost no improvement. It made me feel usless as a mum and I realised I dont have the skills to help him. But, I really dont know where to go. I dont want my son to look back on his childhood with sadness, of being teased forever, bullied as he is now, and with the lable of "stupid". What can I do to help him? and to build up his self esteem? Feeling hopeless, Fiona I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused. If its not acceptable to raceully abuse some one why should it be acceptable to abuse someone for being dyslexic. I admit to being sensative, but what is wrong with that? It better that being thicked skinned, mindless person who does not care about any feelings.If I am sensative then I am about other people feelings as well as my own.

Response:

Yeah…I know what you were talking about. I never said that Dyslexia held me back. My insecurity and low self esteem from my experiences as being a misunderstood Dyslexic held be back. I had to deal with ignorant shrinks diagnosing me with mental illnesses that I didn’t have. I had to fight hard and confront them to get my schizoaffective bipolar diagnosis changed to mixed anxiety depressive disorder. When shrinks constantly misjudge me and label me with BS psychiatric disorders, how in the hell am I supposed to be. How can a person not dwell on their learning disability when its being mistaken for mental illness. Rapid speech isn’t just a bipolar symptom. Rapid speech can be cluttering which is common in people with communication disorders, and it says so in the DSM-IV. YES-I CAN READ!—thanks to early special education training that included intensive phonics and speech therapy. A lot of dyslexics can be clumsy in speech, but that doesn’t mean that they are psychotic which they tried to diagnose me with and tried to force me to take a neuroleptic. I can relate to the ADHD too. A lot of ADHD are seen as bipolar. A lot of gifted are being misdiagnosed with bipolar. I am learning disabled gifted person myself. I excell in some things and have very high scores in certain standardized tests and lower scores on others. I always had uneven grades and uneven standardized test scores. I was tired of being accused of being stupid,lazy,or crazy. It’s all BS. I had lots of insecurity and low self esteem disorder any way. My experiences have made me a highly compassionate,loving,caring,and tolerant person. My mixed ethnic background has been a factor too. Right now, I am training to be a massage therapist at western career college. I am having problems with the written tests, but I am doing fine with massages. I notice that I tend to get tense and nervous when people are watching me do massage. I also have fear of talking in front of a lot of people in class. I have no problem doing things one on one with people. I just had a massage from a professional massage therapist for the very first time yesterday, and I was so relaxed. I am thinking of getting massages to help with my anxiety. Medications don’t do crap for me. I am not anxious all the time. My anxiety has to do with taking tests,speaking in front of a lot of people, and doing things with my hands in front of people, and that’s related to my speech and coordination problems that I had in the past. I have problems memorizing words. I am good at memorizing massage things that are shown to me as long as nervousness doesn’t get in the way. I am not nervous about dancing in front of a lot of people at dance clubs. I don’t really believe that I have social anxiety disorder. I feel that its more about fear of failure. I feel that you came across very intensitive,selfrighteous,and ignorant in your post. I felt like you judged me without even knowing me. I am a person that has suffered a lot, but I have been using those experiences to be extremely compassionate. I do help people, and I will always help people as a holistic health practitioner. I also have a strong belief in God, and so I believe in doing unto others as I would have them do unto me. I believe in Unity and Universal Love for I am a pantheistic universalist. Spirituality is very important to me, and it motivates me to be a healer. Dyslexia doesn’t stop me at all. I feel dealing with ignorant ass people is the problem. Yeah…a lot of cruel people are in the real world, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that people have to be cruel. People should be treated with respect. I believe in civil rights and fair treatment. That’s why I believe in gay marriages. Gay people are people too, and they don’t deserve to be mistreated. Dyslexics are people too, and they don’t deserve to be mistreated. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to be cruel. I don’t want to be a jerk and tell people to stop their whining and get over it. I want to give them a shoulder to cry on at times. I want to gently talk to that person and hold his or her hand. I want to encourage him or her in the best way that I know how. Most of all, I want to just listen and not judge. I want to be sensitive to their feelings and needs. That is what I feel being a holistic health practitioner is all about. That’s just my opinion. Peace Raymond THINK BEFORE YOU TRY TO BE DR PHIL WITH OTHERS. IT MAKES YOU LOOK IGNORANT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I don’t know that i dwell on the past as such but it kind of comes and goes. I am having counsiling now to try and help. Somtimes I have bad dreams about the bullying i recieved and sometime go back to being a frightend boy. Its really only recently that i realised that my past was affecting me. In a sense I guess it will always me with me. The counseling is also looking at now, how do I handle situations now. When I fists found out I was dyslexic I went through a wave of emotions which I think many people do. FIrst i felt a sense of relife, then started feeling sorry for myself then I felt anger. The anger is still with me, a bit lie the Hulk it comes and goes. I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it.     I was making a direct response to Raymond, in a desperate attempt to give the poor guy some perspective. Dyslexia is an obstacle, but in and of itself it doesn’t hold people back. It’s an inherrent part of who you are, and it’s melded deep into your personality. It’s like saying you’re being held back because you’re not athletic, or you don’t have good memory. There are dyslexics who overcome that obstacle to reach their goals, even when dyslexia is directly opposed to them, all the time. Whether or not you’re one of those people is dependent entirely on whether or not you’re strong enough as a person to do it and if achieving the goal is worth enough to you, and has nothing to do with dyslexia itself. If dyselxia is the stumbling block that stops you, then it wasn’t dyselxia. There are dozens of other stumbling blocks that would’ve stopped you had it not been there. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying.     Same with me. So I do have some perspective on where you’re coming from. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused.     Try this one. So what are you doing about it? You’ve had a horrible childhood, a good one seems like a rarity. You went undiagnosed all those years. But you’ve survived. You’re past the bad part. And you’re diagnosed now. You know why things are the way they are, and you know what kind of help you need. Is there a complaint in here somewhere?     If you missed it last time I was here, maybe you’ll see it this time. I made a post two months ago, and I haven’t been back to this group since (it became unreadable due to spam). After all this time you’ve written two responses to me. This isn’t a direct response to me (unless I’m wrong and you’re just going through the archives), but something you’ve put at least some energy into coming up with. Why? I’m a faceless person who a while back said something you didn’t agree with online, and I don’t even know you. So, other than my ego, what purpose does it serve to be devoting so much energy into something that has past and been forgotten, and couldn’t that energy be applied to more positive endevours?     Do you see the point here? Yeah, I know I’m nobody and you’ll probably have forgotten about me in a few months and be done with it, but there are other, bigger things, in the same regard you’ve mentioned in your posts. What good is it doing you to dwell on things in the past which you’ve already escaped and never have to deal with again?

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Hi Roger, I hope that all is well with you. I have seen your posts, and I have to say that you come a across as a very understanding,wise,and tolerant person who sees the big picture. You seem to show positive expression of sensitivity. I want to thank you for what you said. You pretty much said what I wanted to say. I feel that people assume too much stuff about people and then they say things that are rather erroneous. I have been doing a lot of things to help myself including attending massage school to prepare to be a holistic health practitioner which I feel is the spiritual path that I was born for. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it.     I was making a direct response to Raymond, in a desperate attempt to give the poor guy some perspective. Dyslexia is an obstacle, but in and of itself it doesn’t hold people back. It’s an inherrent part of who you are, and it’s melded deep into your personality. It’s like saying you’re being held back because you’re not athletic, or you don’t have good memory. There are dyslexics who overcome that obstacle to reach their goals, even when dyslexia is directly opposed to them, all the time. Whether or not you’re one of those people is dependent entirely on whether or not you’re strong enough as a person to do it and if achieving the goal is worth enough to you, and has nothing to do with dyslexia itself. If dyselxia is the stumbling block that stops you, then it wasn’t dyselxia. There are dozens of other stumbling blocks that would’ve stopped you had it not been there. well yes and no, remeber there are many differant forms and levels sevority of dyslexic and related symptoms, just becuase person A isn’t held back is no reason why person B might be, that said rather like the thought "every one is having fun but me" ie would people have differant lives if they where not dysexic probably but then you woun’t be who you are as dyslexic is how your brain works, its not just oh that wee bit. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying.     Same with me. So I do have some perspective on where you’re coming from. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused.     Try this one. So what are you doing about it? You’ve had a horrible childhood, a good one seems like a rarity. You went undiagnosed all those years. But you’ve survived. You’re past the bad part. And you’re diagnosed now. You know why things are the way they are, and you know what kind of help you need. Is there a complaint in here somewhere?     If you missed it last time I was here, maybe you’ll see it this time. I made a post two months ago, and I haven’t been back to this group since (it became unreadable due to spam). After all this time you’ve written two responses to me. This isn’t a direct response to me (unless I’m wrong and you’re just going through the archives), but something you’ve put at least some energy into coming up with. Why? I’m a faceless person who a while back said something you didn’t agree with online, and I don’t even know you. So, other than my ego, what purpose does it serve to be devoting so much energy into something that has past and been forgotten, and couldn’t that energy be applied to more positive endevours?     Do you see the point here? Yeah, I know I’m nobody and you’ll probably have forgotten about me in a few months and be done with it, but there are other, bigger things, in the same regard you’ve mentioned in your posts. What good is it doing you to dwell on things in the past which you’ve already escaped and never have to deal with again? what spam? certianly i receved none here but one about the x men suck.. yes there are a lot of people with childhood scars from school and schooling and that doesn’t make it any less worse though by the same token dosn’t mean you have to dig about sometimes its not worth persuing what is going to hurt you but that has no resulotion. roger

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wow, your experiences here that Ive read, shocked me. I believe my son to have dyslexia and am in the process of getting him tested, and the main reason Ive done it is because of his low self esteem and his, "im stupid" attitude. I feel for him, for 3 yrs, Ive felt he was "lazy" and "not trying" but, in the last few weeks we have been working hard together on spelling, reading etc, and He has worked his but of, to almost no improvement. It made me feel usless as a mum and I realised I dont have the skills to help him. But, I really dont know where to go. I dont want my son to look back on his childhood with sadness, of being teased forever, bullied as he is now, and with the lable of "stupid". What can I do to help him? and to build up his self esteem? Feeling hopeless, Fiona

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read a posting which said Dyslexia does not hold you back. I think it was posted by Rob. He goes on to say something people are horrible and you have to deal with it. I think my Dyslexia did hold me back. For one thing I never knew I was dyslexic until recently. At school i had a lot of problems and was made to feel I was stupied and lazy and just not trying. I did varous jobs and in general managed to just about hold onto them. But I seened to make lots of mistakes and I could not really understand why. I already had low self-estime due to expereience at school and what happens to you as a child  effect you as an adult. The problems I had in the work place continuted to affect my self estime and did mt head in. I just could not undertand why I did this things. In a litrate world being dyslexic puts you at a disadvantage. I agree that if your dyslexia get picked up and you get proper help then it is easier to live with but in my case it did not get picked up. I do find myself on the receiving end of abuse. Rob would say I guess ’so what’ well, I have a right not to be abused. If its not acceptable to raceully abuse some one why should it be acceptable to abuse someone for being dyslexic. I admit to being sensative, but what is wrong with that? It better that being thicked skinned, mindless person who does not care about any feelings.If I am sensative then I am about other people feelings as well as my own.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mark, am I correct that you’ve said that sometimes seizure activity might result in ADHD-like symptoms? Would seizure activity also cause ODD-like behaviors? How about episodes of rage? Nancy Unique, like everyone else Also, it is interesting that epilepsy meds are used for bipolar (etc). What would make a certain symptom more "epileptic like" than opposed to a more mood like, etc.

It’s not easy. I approach it through the perspective of neuropsych testing.  There is no reason to believe that bipolar disorder (or any mood disorder for that matter) should have negative effects on only one hemisphere of the brain. So when you test someone and they have intact (or even above average) verbal memory and nonverbal memory is impaired, (or vice versa) red flags get raised. If there are asymmetrical motor signs (is the left hand significantly weaker than the average left hand and the right isn’t?), red flags are raised. There is no reason to believe that bipolar disorder will produce symptoms of deja vu and olfactory hallucinations–the former being very common in seizure disorders. The latter is less common but almost non existent in psychiatric disorders. Now, having said that mood disorders don’t affect the hemispheres disproportionately, I do believe that there is evidence to suggest that right hemisphere deficits can often manifest as intractable depression. Intractable because it does not respond to medication or conventional insight oriented therapy.  I have had luck using skills training techniques (teaching the person how to perceive reality, learning how to back off from the details so that the big picture can be attended to, etc.) as a way of treating this kind of depression. So in my head the depression is a function of asymmetrical functioning, not the other way around. The below link has me a bit more confused, although in some way I think I might understand a bit more. I need someone to help me sort it out… It’s called "Is there an epileptic personality?" http://www.epilepsy.com/articles/ar_1064250059.html

There’s been a fair ammount published on this and this site summarizes it pretty good (maybe a bit too technical). If it helps, "interictal" refers to the time periods between seizures. I could go on and on and I’m sure no one wants that. Were there specific questions about that page? I had to chuckle with the "More recently, Dr. Norman Geschwind" comment. Dr. Geschwind has been dead for a while. He established the first behavioral neurology unit in the country (i.e., US). His successor, Dr. Albert Galaburda’s interest is in dyslexia and williams syndrome. The unit has established a world wide reputation for working with seizure disorders and dementias. It was there that I received my training.  The Dr. Bear who is cited practices in Boston as well as at a hospital 25 miles north of me and is considered one of the leading experts on epilepsy. Look at the criteria identified on the page and I’m sure that everyone will be able to think of someone they remind them of. Some people have theorized that St. Paul had a seizure personality (and that falling off and onto his ass was in fact a seizure). Van Gough is believed to have sliced off his ear during an interictal episode. — Perhaps you will reach an age, where what happened to you as a youth is not as important as what is happening in the present.                 Leah… AKA 1/27/04 http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for your feed back.  We have visited Dr. Amen’s clinic and our son was diagnosed with Type 6 ADHD – Ring of Fire.  The only SSRI’s he has been on is Celexa and Straterra.  What is OCD? It’s been a while since I’ve visited Amen’s site so my memory may be fuzzy. At least one of his ADHD types sounds to me more like seizure activity than ADHD. Your son is taking an anticonvulsant. Have you consulted with a neurologist? Mark, am I correct that you’ve said that sometimes seizure activity might result in ADHD-like symptoms? Would seizure activity also cause ODD-like behaviors? How about episodes of rage?

partial complex seizures often originate in the mesial (inside surface of) temporal lobe. That’s one reason they are hard to detect on EEG–the signal is often disipated by the time it reaches the cortex, much less through the skull. You get the classic partial complex symptoms of spacing out which, I’ve found anyway, often misidentified as ADHD. The inside surface of the temporal lobe also is adjacent to the limbic system–where emotional regulation originates. Zap the amygdala and rage can certainly be a byproduct. As far as ODD (and I’ve seen more than a few), I try real hard to avoid this diagnosis. To me, it’s akin to diagnosing someone as borderline personality. Well, maybe not nowadays where there are treatments with efficacy but there was a time when you had someone, they were obviously disturbed and didn’t respond to any treatment–you called them borderline. When a kid is faced with obstacles, whether it be language limitations, having his/her body do things of which he/she has no control (as in seizure activity but I’ve seen kids get oppositional over the fact that they have diabetes and their oppositionality is the only way that they know how to exercise control over that which they can control), etc., etc., becoming oppositional is not always such an unreasonable choice. So when I hear "ODD," my first thought is has there been a functional behavioral analysis, what function are these behaviors serving in this kid’s life? oops, didn’t realize that would be a rant. — Perhaps you will reach an age, where what happened to you as a youth is not as important as what is happening in the present.                 Leah… AKA 1/27/04 http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

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Our son (10) was diagnosed as having ADHD with impulsivity/Oppositional Defiant Disorder 3 1/2 years ago.  We first tried Ritilan for 6 months.  This worked well, but had some disturbing side effects (total loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, rebounding).  We then switched to Adderall (20mg)for the last two years.  Although it was better, he still had some bad side effects(loss of appetite, difficulty going to sleep, social rigidity, flat affect).  We then tried Staterra for a few months with a lower dose of Adderall(15mg), but this would upset his stomach and make him nauseous.  Finally, we tried Celexa with Adderall(15mg); but he is still being opositional in school. Our Dr. is recommending Trileptal with Adderall. Does anyone have experience with Trileptal and ADHD?  I would appreicate any comments or experiences with this medicine. R.W.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Our son (10) was diagnosed as having ADHD with impulsivity/Oppositional Defiant Disorder 3 1/2 years ago.  We first tried Ritilan for 6 months.  This worked well, but had some disturbing side effects (total loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, rebounding).  We then switched to Adderall (20mg)for the last two years.  Although it was better, he still had some bad side effects(loss of appetite, difficulty going to sleep, social rigidity, flat affect).  We then tried Staterra for a few months with a lower dose of Adderall(15mg), but this would upset his stomach and make him nauseous.  Finally, we tried Celexa with Adderall(15mg); but he is still being opositional in school. Our Dr. is recommending Trileptal with Adderall. Does anyone have experience with Trileptal and ADHD?  I would appreicate any comments or experiences with this medicine. R.W.

It’s good at mood stabilizing (at least in *my* experience). Don’t know what it will do for oppositional behavior. Maybe the mood stabilizing effect will help. Best wishes. MorphGrrl

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our son (10) was diagnosed as having ADHD with impulsivity/Oppositional Defiant Disorder 3 1/2 years ago.  We first tried Ritilan for 6 months.  This worked well, but had some disturbing side effects (total loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, rebounding).  We then switched to Adderall (20mg)for the last two years.  Although it was better, he still had some bad side effects(loss of appetite, difficulty going to sleep, social rigidity, flat affect).  We then tried Staterra for a few months with a lower dose of Adderall(15mg), but this would upset his stomach and make him nauseous.  Finally, we tried Celexa with Adderall(15mg); but he is still being opositional in school. Our Dr. is recommending Trileptal with Adderall. Does anyone have experience with Trileptal and ADHD?  I would appreicate any comments or experiences with this medicine.

Has he tried any SSRI’s?  Dr. Amen recently posted on his site that ODD looks a lot like OCD in SPECT scans.  I assume that would mean that ODD is often anxiety based.  Looking back to my own childhood and recent OCD diagnosis, that makes a lot of sense to me. — "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."       –Theodore Roosevelt email to: gamboltATsofthomeDOTnet

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our son (10) was diagnosed as having ADHD with impulsivity/Oppositional Defiant Disorder 3 1/2 years ago.  We first tried Ritilan for 6 months.  This worked well, but had some disturbing side effects (total loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, rebounding).  We then switched to Adderall (20mg)for the last two years.  Although it was better, he still had some bad side effects(loss of appetite, difficulty going to sleep, social rigidity, flat affect).  We then tried Staterra for a few months with a lower dose of Adderall(15mg), but this would upset his stomach and make him nauseous.  Finally, we tried Celexa with Adderall(15mg); but he is still being opositional in school. Our Dr. is recommending Trileptal with Adderall. Does anyone have experience with Trileptal and ADHD?  I would appreicate any comments or experiences with this medicine. Has he tried any SSRI’s?  Dr. Amen recently posted on his site that ODD looks a lot like OCD in SPECT scans.  I assume that would mean that ODD is often anxiety based.  Looking back to my own childhood and recent OCD diagnosis, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Thanks for your feed back.  We have visited Dr. Amen’s clinic and our son was diagnosed with Type 6 ADHD – Ring of Fire.  The only SSRI’s he has been on is Celexa and Straterra.  What is OCD?

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<snip || Thanks for your feed back.  We have visited Dr. Amen’s clinic and our || son was diagnosed with Type 6 ADHD – Ring of Fire.  The only SSRI’s || he has been on is Celexa and Straterra.  What is OCD? Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. HTH, Grymma

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our son (10) was diagnosed as having ADHD with impulsivity/Oppositional Defiant Disorder 3 1/2 years ago.  We first tried Ritilan for 6 months.  This worked well, but had some disturbing side effects (total loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, rebounding).  We then switched to Adderall (20mg)for the last two years.  Although it was better, he still had some bad side effects(loss of appetite, difficulty going to sleep, social rigidity, flat affect).  We then tried Staterra for a few months with a lower dose of Adderall(15mg), but this would upset his stomach and make him nauseous.  Finally, we tried Celexa with Adderall(15mg); but he is still being opositional in school. Our Dr. is recommending Trileptal with Adderall. Does anyone have experience with Trileptal and ADHD?  I would appreicate any comments or experiences with this medicine. Has he tried any SSRI’s?  Dr. Amen recently posted on his site that ODD looks a lot like OCD in SPECT scans.  I assume that would mean that ODD is often anxiety based.  Looking back to my own childhood and recent OCD diagnosis, that makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for your feed back.  We have visited Dr. Amen’s clinic and our son was diagnosed with Type 6 ADHD – Ring of Fire.  The only SSRI’s he has been on is Celexa and Straterra.  What is OCD?

It’s been a while since I’ve visited Amen’s site so my memory may be fuzzy. At least one of his ADHD types sounds to me more like seizure activity than ADHD. Your son is taking an anticonvulsant. Have you consulted with a neurologist?

Response:

Thanks for your feed back.  We have visited Dr. Amen’s clinic and our son was diagnosed with Type 6 ADHD – Ring of Fire.  The only SSRI’s he has been on is Celexa and Straterra.  What is OCD? It’s been a while since I’ve visited Amen’s site so my memory may be fuzzy. At least one of his ADHD types sounds to me more like seizure activity than ADHD. Your son is taking an anticonvulsant. Have you consulted with a neurologist?

Mark, am I correct that you’ve said that sometimes seizure activity might result in ADHD-like symptoms? Would seizure activity also cause ODD-like behaviors? How about episodes of rage? Nancy Unique, like everyone else

Response:

Mark, am I correct that you’ve said that sometimes seizure activity might result in ADHD-like symptoms? Would seizure activity also cause ODD-like behaviors? How about episodes of rage? Nancy Unique, like everyone else

Also, it is interesting that epilepsy meds are used for bipolar (etc). What would make a certain symptom more "epileptic like" than opposed to a more mood like, etc. The below link has me a bit more confused, although in some way I think I might understand a bit more. I need someone to help me sort it out… It’s called "Is there an epileptic personality?" http://www.epilepsy.com/articles/ar_1064250059.html MorphGrrl

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